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#11
June 19th, 2004, 06:36 PM
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MS sales in Europe
Again Thanks,
Oddly enough as this conversation is going, I (we) had to move over one hundred machines in one complex from WordPerfect to Word to facilitate communications. Cost, in this instance, was not a deciding issue and even while demanding a bit of retraining. Interoffice and outbound communications was becoming more of a challenge with each year. Just the conversion glitches in faxs, emails, etc. as well as financial, legal and proprietary files, papers, with our business associates dictated we all be on the same platform. So, I wish the desenting part of the world lots of luck but it just may be a bit up hill for them. Ask Microsoft? Surely you jest............ ;-} Take care Jim Curts "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote in message ... The views expressed are completely my own coming from a public sector employer and looking to the future. We have already committed to Windows/Exchange/Office 2003 for our next upgrade and are not looking back. We (my agency) looked at the costs and potential savings and it was a wash. The pain points were most of the deciding factor. If you want to ask what Microsoft is doing to counter the anti-MS sentiment and concurrent attempts (note this with interest) to move away from it, ask Microsoft. I neither work for them, am an agent for them, or have any vested interest in their success or failure as a software company. Many of the "Linux Switchers" are using OSS as a bargaining chip to wrest smaller costs for the next licensing cycle. Many are actually running OSS experiments. How many of those running experiments intend to move, I don;t know and don't care. AFAICS, it is a bargaining chip in a market that has seen few economies until OSS came into the mix. -- Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. "James Curts" wrote in message ... Thank you Milly, I enjoyed and appreciate you view of the situation as it stands. I am curious to know jus thow MS will counter these sidewise movements or if they are even concerned at this time. I see France has jumped onto the wagon also but makes no commitment at this time. As much bemoaning of MS as we hear it is to our advantage from a much broader view to support them. Fragmentation of an industry seldom brings us the long term answers we need in a healthy business and commercially active nation. While an idea may emerge in a man's mind while standing at a street corner it is the large and well established entity which generally puts the product on the shelves. Again, Thanks Jim Curts "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote in message ... I think the main issue here is the assumption that the moves are "anti-MS" and not pro-cook your own. There are many compelling reasons to use OSS for public entities - mainly the ability to use open standards which everyone, using the OS platform of their choice, will be able to access. Using Word, as an example, for all gov't documents requires that users either have Word, a Word compatible program (may cost money) or download the Word viewer (internet charges from the ISP). However, using .pdf may be the better choice as most programs that include a .pdf for documentation also include the free Acrobat Reader. While the WordViewer from Office Downloads works fine, again there is the charge for Internet Access. I completely understand why the public sector looks to save money, become more open in their standards, support multiple platform access, etc. I do question the costs for the conversion versus the actual number of public served. Take for example, the apocryphal numbers. Windows/Office owns about 90-95% of the desktop (subject to arguments with each side citing unsupported numbers). Ergo, 90-95% of the users should be able to access any document, spreadsheet, informational pamphlet, etc. created using Microsoft Office. So, where does the alleged cost savings come into play? Read with an open mind: Take my agency (yes, I work for a public sector agency) for an example. We use proprietary payroll, HR, Database, etc. systems, (not Microsoft), other software solutions built only for Windows with no other platform compatibility (Attachmate for accessing mainframe environments), and have automated literally thousands of mundane activities using Macros, both from Microsoft and Attachmate. All of our systems are built around Microsoft and Microsoft compatible software. We are the largest state economy in America and the 5th largest in the world. Okay, now take away Microsoft, retrain all of our IT staff (rather, those who want to be retrained rather than go to another agency or private sector where their skills will be welcome), hire programmers who are familiar with OSS programming - OOPS!!! We are under a hiring freeze and have been for 3 years - factor in retraining for all staff in the applications that come with OSS (yes, retrain them = there are people here who yelp for help when a toolbar disappears), and remain productive the entire time and meet your federal and state service levels. This is much more involved than a religious war and should be taken more seriously by folks who say, dump _____________ (insert your system of choice here) and go to ______________ (insert your religious system of choice here). Just my $1.25 - hey, it took a lot to type all of this and try to get it right while including the major obstacles to "just moving" to OSS. There is a reason it will take Munich 4-5 years to complete the transition. For many, the pain points are more expensive than the cost of remaining with proprietary solutions. And, remember, Munich is using VMWare to mimic the Windows/Office environments until their solution is complete several years into the future. -- Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. Due to the (insert latest virus name here) virus, all mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without reading. After searching google.groups.com and finding no answer, James Curts asked: ||| GRIN | | You win the Pooh Bear Award for missing the point of it all. | | I had hoped one of the gurus may have been able to shed some light on | how MS intends to counter the European's anti MS issue. There are | possible solutions which could have very favorable results for | domestic markets as well. As mentioned before, I have no intention of | moving away from MS at this time but obtaining some relief in the | upgrade portion alone would be welcome. | | Jim Curts | | | "Mercury" wrote in message | ... || I suppose that is better than irrelevant postings like yours, that || belong *in* the *toilet*, Jimmy! As I said this is a *technical* || newsgroup, which you seem unable to comprehend, with your anti-MS || screed. || || "James Curts" wrote in message || ... ||| I posted this in the hopes someone working more closely to the MS ||| folks had knowledgeable opinions regarding issues which prompted ||| the European countries to move a way from the MS products. ||| ||| I and other business folk tend to follow along with the news and ||| even these informal little sources of ongoing trends, issues and ||| solutions. ||| ||| Since you had nothing to contribute it would follow that you may ||| just be a trollette. ||| ||| Thank you ||| ||| Jim Curts ||| ||| ||| "Mercury" wrote in message ||| ... |||| Since this is a technical newgroup, we will assume you posted this |||| because you are a troll? |||| |||| |||| "James Curts" wrote in message |||| ... ||||| Hmmm, inversely, we did not defeat Norway nor do them any harm. ||||| As I recall from reading WWII history it was Germany that treated ||||| Norway rather crassly. The joining of efforts in this instance ||||| does not hold up to some dissagreement in the 1940's. ||||| ||||| It may be interesting to see how far they will go toward cutting ||||| off their nose to spite their faces, if indeed that is the case. ||||| ||||| Looking back a bit further in this mid tech struggle it is noted ||||| that European and Asian peoples are working toward a competent OS ||||| to replace MS with significantly less expensive systems. I would ||||| not take that to insinuate an "ANTI-AMERICANISM" thing but an ||||| effort to move ahead indipendently in the busy and fast paced ||||| world of computing. ||||| ||||| I mention this only as an item of interest. I have no intention ||||| of moving from MS in the near future strictly because of the ||||| momentum and passive acceptance of their programs in business and ||||| industry. ||||| ||||| Jim Curts ||||| ||||| Microsoft Preferred Customer" ||||| wrote in message ||||| ... |||||| This is meerely ANTI-AMERICANISM. They lost the war (Germany) |||||| and we don't invite them annually to celebrate VE-DAY and so |||||| forth. It can be painful when you loose the war. |||||| |||||| Nothing to worry. From 99% coverage of Ms products it has gone |||||| down to |||||| 98.9999999999%. Not a big dent in annual revenues considering |||||| the fact that Europe has always practised protectionism when it |||||| comes to trading with the US. When time comes they will crawl |||||| back for US (and British) assistance especially when terrorists |||||| strikes them!! France and Germany have sabotaged | UN |||| votes ||||| many |||||| times but we don't forget these things so easily!. |||||| |||||| Hopefully England will deal with them in a game of Football in |||||| EURO 2004 semi-final. Watch the space he |||||| |||||| || http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ts/default.stm |||||| |||||| |||||| |||||| James Curts wrote: |||||| ||||||| If anyone has been following the MS sales pitch in Europe: ||||||| ||||||| City of Munich, Germany will switch to Linux. The change will ||||||| officially take place on July 1, 2004 and 14,000 desktops will ||||||| permanently migrate from MS and MS Office to open source ||||||| software and OpenOffice. They | will |||| call ||||| for ||||||| all municipal PCs and notebooks to be changed over by 2008. ||||||| ||||||| Bergen, Norway announced it would be following in Munich's ||||||| footsteps. ||||||| ||||||| Evidently OO has something going for itself after all. ||||||| ||||||| What is MS doing to counter this exodis? It seems these and ||||||| other municipalities do not want MS Office even in streamlined ||||||| versions with training and perks thrown in. ||||||| ||||||| Surely this can not just be a Euro thing......... ||||||| ||||||| Jim Curts 
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#12
June 20th, 2004, 05:06 AM
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MS sales in Europe
Well, I guess I should not have added that "ask Microsoft" part as I
understand that sometimes getting information on sensitive business plans, software development movement, etc. is hard for the general public. As an MVP, we have a bit of a closer relationship, depending on the product group to which your product belongs. Being an Outlook MVP, we have developed a close working and social relationship with a number of folks on the Outlook/Office team and may enjoy more open exchanges of information than other MVPs. However, that is one area where I really appreciate the value that Microsoft placed on my technical contributions to the improvement of user experiences. I enjoy the interaction with the Outlook product team and have seen several ideas that the Outlook MVPs have bandied about actually implemented in the product. -- Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. Due to the (insert latest virus name here) virus, all mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without reading. After searching google.groups.com and finding no answer, James Curts asked: | Again Thanks, | | Oddly enough as this conversation is going, I (we) had to move over | one hundred machines in one complex from WordPerfect to Word to | facilitate communications. Cost, in this instance, was not a deciding | issue and even while demanding a bit of retraining. Interoffice and | outbound communications was becoming more of a challenge with each | year. Just the conversion glitches in faxs, emails, etc. as well as | financial, legal and proprietary files, papers, with our business | associates dictated we all be on the same platform. | | So, I wish the desenting part of the world lots of luck but it just | may be a bit up hill for them. | | Ask Microsoft? Surely you jest............ ;-} | | Take care | | Jim Curts | | | | "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" | wrote in message | ... || The views expressed are completely my own coming from a public sector || employer and looking to the future. We have already committed to || Windows/Exchange/Office 2003 for our next upgrade and are not || looking back. We (my agency) looked at the costs and potential || savings and it was a wash. The pain points were most of the deciding || factor. || || If you want to ask what Microsoft is doing to counter the anti-MS || sentiment and concurrent attempts (note this with interest) to move || away from it, ask Microsoft. I neither work for them, am an agent || for them, or have any vested interest in their success or failure as || a software company. Many of the "Linux Switchers" are using OSS as || a bargaining chip to wrest smaller costs for the next licensing || cycle. Many are actually running OSS experiments. How many of || those running experiments intend to move, I don;t know and don't || care. AFAICS, it is a bargaining chip in a market that has seen few || economies until OSS came into the mix. || || -- || Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] || || Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. || || "James Curts" wrote in message || ... || Thank you Milly, || I enjoyed and appreciate you view of the situation as it stands. I am || curious to know jus thow MS will counter these sidewise movements or || if they are even concerned at this time. I see France has jumped || onto the wagon also but makes no commitment at this time. || As much bemoaning of MS as we hear it is to our advantage from a much || broader view to support them. Fragmentation of an industry seldom || brings us the long term answers we need in a healthy business and || commercially active nation. While an idea may emerge in a man's mind || while standing at a street corner it is the large and well || established entity which generally puts the product on the shelves. || Again, Thanks || Jim Curts || "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" || wrote in message || ... ||| I think the main issue here is the assumption that the moves are ||| "anti-MS" and not pro-cook your own. There are many compelling ||| reasons to use OSS for ||| public entities - mainly the ability to use open standards which ||| everyone, using the OS platform of their choice, will be able to ||| access. ||| ||| Using Word, as an example, for all gov't documents requires that ||| users either have Word, a Word compatible program (may cost money) ||| or download the ||| Word viewer (internet charges from the ISP). However, using .pdf ||| may be the ||| better choice as most programs that include a .pdf for ||| documentation also include the free Acrobat Reader. While the ||| WordViewer from Office Downloads ||| works fine, again there is the charge for Internet Access. ||| ||| I completely understand why the public sector looks to save money, ||| become more open in their standards, support multiple platform ||| access, etc. I do ||| question the costs for the conversion versus the actual number of ||| public served. ||| ||| Take for example, the apocryphal numbers. Windows/Office owns about ||| 90-95% ||| of the desktop (subject to arguments with each side citing ||| unsupported numbers). Ergo, 90-95% of the users should be able to ||| access any document, ||| spreadsheet, informational pamphlet, etc. created using Microsoft ||| Office. So, where does the alleged cost savings come into play? ||| Read with an open mind: ||| ||| Take my agency (yes, I work for a public sector agency) for an ||| example. We ||| use proprietary payroll, HR, Database, etc. systems, (not ||| Microsoft), other ||| software solutions built only for Windows with no other platform ||| compatibility (Attachmate for accessing mainframe environments), ||| and have automated literally thousands of mundane activities using ||| Macros, both from ||| Microsoft and Attachmate. ||| ||| All of our systems are built around Microsoft and Microsoft ||| compatible software. We are the largest state economy in America ||| and the 5th largest in the world. ||| ||| Okay, now take away Microsoft, retrain all of our IT staff (rather, ||| those who want to be retrained rather than go to another agency or ||| private sector ||| where their skills will be welcome), hire programmers who are ||| familiar with ||| OSS programming - OOPS!!! We are under a hiring freeze and have ||| been for 3 years - factor in retraining for all staff in the ||| applications that come with OSS (yes, retrain them = there are ||| people here who yelp for help when a ||| toolbar disappears), and remain productive the entire time and meet ||| your federal and state service levels. ||| ||| This is much more involved than a religious war and should be taken ||| more seriously by folks who say, dump _____________ (insert your ||| system of choice ||| here) and go to ______________ (insert your religious system of ||| choice here). ||| ||| Just my $1.25 - hey, it took a lot to type all of this and try to ||| get it right while including the major obstacles to "just moving" ||| to OSS. ||| ||| There is a reason it will take Munich 4-5 years to complete the ||| transition. ||| For many, the pain points are more expensive than the cost of ||| remaining with ||| proprietary solutions. And, remember, Munich is using VMWare to ||| mimic the Windows/Office environments until their solution is ||| complete several years into the future. ||| ||| ||| -- ||| Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] ||| ||| Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. Due to ||| the (insert latest virus name here) virus, all mail sent to my ||| personal account will be deleted without reading. ||| ||| After searching google.groups.com and finding no answer, James Curts ||| asked: ||| |||||| GRIN |||| |||| You win the Pooh Bear Award for missing the point of it all. |||| |||| I had hoped one of the gurus may have been able to shed some light |||| on how MS intends to counter the European's anti MS issue. There |||| are possible solutions which could have very favorable results for |||| domestic markets as well. As mentioned before, I have no intention |||| of moving away from MS at this time but obtaining some relief in |||| the upgrade portion alone would be welcome. |||| |||| Jim Curts |||| |||| |||| "Mercury" wrote in message |||| ... ||||| I suppose that is better than irrelevant postings like yours, that ||||| belong *in* the *toilet*, Jimmy! As I said this is a *technical* ||||| newsgroup, which you seem unable to comprehend, with your anti-MS ||||| screed. ||||| ||||| "James Curts" wrote in message ||||| ... |||||| I posted this in the hopes someone working more closely to the MS |||||| folks had knowledgeable opinions regarding issues which prompted |||||| the European countries to move a way from the MS products. |||||| |||||| I and other business folk tend to follow along with the news and |||||| even these informal little sources of ongoing trends, issues and |||||| solutions. |||||| |||||| Since you had nothing to contribute it would follow that you may |||||| just be a trollette. |||||| |||||| Thank you |||||| |||||| Jim Curts |||||| |||||| |||||| "Mercury" wrote in message |||||| ... ||||||| Since this is a technical newgroup, we will assume you posted ||||||| this because you are a troll? ||||||| ||||||| ||||||| "James Curts" wrote in message ||||||| ... |||||||| Hmmm, inversely, we did not defeat Norway nor do them any harm. |||||||| As I recall from reading WWII history it was Germany that |||||||| treated Norway rather crassly. The joining of efforts in this |||||||| instance does not hold up to some dissagreement in the 1940's. |||||||| |||||||| It may be interesting to see how far they will go toward |||||||| cutting off their nose to spite their faces, if indeed that is |||||||| the case. |||||||| |||||||| Looking back a bit further in this mid tech struggle it is |||||||| noted that European and Asian peoples are working toward a |||||||| competent OS to replace MS with significantly less expensive |||||||| systems. I would not take that to insinuate an |||||||| "ANTI-AMERICANISM" thing but an effort to move ahead |||||||| indipendently in the busy and fast paced world of computing. |||||||| |||||||| I mention this only as an item of interest. I have no intention |||||||| of moving from MS in the near future strictly because of the |||||||| momentum and passive acceptance of their programs in business |||||||| and industry. |||||||| |||||||| Jim Curts |||||||| |||||||| Microsoft Preferred Customer" |||||||| wrote in message |||||||| ... ||||||||| This is meerely ANTI-AMERICANISM. They lost the war (Germany) ||||||||| and we don't invite them annually to celebrate VE-DAY and so ||||||||| forth. It can be painful when you loose the war. ||||||||| ||||||||| Nothing to worry. From 99% coverage of Ms products it has ||||||||| gone down to ||||||||| 98.9999999999%. Not a big dent in annual revenues considering ||||||||| the fact that Europe has always practised protectionism when ||||||||| it comes to trading with the US. When time comes they will ||||||||| crawl back for US (and British) assistance especially when ||||||||| terrorists strikes them!! France and Germany have sabotaged |||| UN ||||||| votes |||||||| many ||||||||| times but we don't forget these things so easily!. ||||||||| ||||||||| Hopefully England will deal with them in a game of Football in ||||||||| EURO 2004 semi-final. Watch the space he ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||| | http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ts/default.stm ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||||||| James Curts wrote: ||||||||| |||||||||| If anyone has been following the MS sales pitch in Europe: |||||||||| |||||||||| City of Munich, Germany will switch to Linux. The change will |||||||||| officially take place on July 1, 2004 and 14,000 desktops |||||||||| will permanently migrate from MS and MS Office to open source |||||||||| software and OpenOffice. They |||| will ||||||| call |||||||| for |||||||||| all municipal PCs and notebooks to be changed over by 2008. |||||||||| |||||||||| Bergen, Norway announced it would be following in Munich's |||||||||| footsteps. |||||||||| |||||||||| Evidently OO has something going for itself after all. |||||||||| |||||||||| What is MS doing to counter this exodis? It seems these and |||||||||| other municipalities do not want MS Office even in |||||||||| streamlined versions with training and perks thrown in. |||||||||| |||||||||| Surely this can not just be a Euro thing......... |||||||||| |||||||||| Jim Curts
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#14
June 20th, 2004, 07:09 PM
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MS sales in Europe
Grin... , yes, large organizations do tend to be a bit
proprietary............... It appears you have been recognized for your efforts and we can only appreciate that. Take care Jim Curts "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote in message ... Well, I guess I should not have added that "ask Microsoft" part as I understand that sometimes getting information on sensitive business plans, software development movement, etc. is hard for the general public. As an MVP, we have a bit of a closer relationship, depending on the product group to which your product belongs. Being an Outlook MVP, we have developed a close working and social relationship with a number of folks on the Outlook/Office team and may enjoy more open exchanges of information than other MVPs. However, that is one area where I really appreciate the value that Microsoft placed on my technical contributions to the improvement of user experiences. I enjoy the interaction with the Outlook product team and have seen several ideas that the Outlook MVPs have bandied about actually implemented in the product. -- Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. Due to the (insert latest virus name here) virus, all mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without reading. After searching google.groups.com and finding no answer, James Curts asked: | Again Thanks, | | Oddly enough as this conversation is going, I (we) had to move over | one hundred machines in one complex from WordPerfect to Word to | facilitate communications. Cost, in this instance, was not a deciding | issue and even while demanding a bit of retraining. Interoffice and | outbound communications was becoming more of a challenge with each | year. Just the conversion glitches in faxs, emails, etc. as well as | financial, legal and proprietary files, papers, with our business | associates dictated we all be on the same platform. | | So, I wish the desenting part of the world lots of luck but it just | may be a bit up hill for them. | | Ask Microsoft? Surely you jest............ ;-} | | Take care | | Jim Curts | | | | "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" | wrote in message | ... || The views expressed are completely my own coming from a public sector || employer and looking to the future. We have already committed to || Windows/Exchange/Office 2003 for our next upgrade and are not || looking back. We (my agency) looked at the costs and potential || savings and it was a wash. The pain points were most of the deciding || factor. || || If you want to ask what Microsoft is doing to counter the anti-MS || sentiment and concurrent attempts (note this with interest) to move || away from it, ask Microsoft. I neither work for them, am an agent || for them, or have any vested interest in their success or failure as || a software company. Many of the "Linux Switchers" are using OSS as || a bargaining chip to wrest smaller costs for the next licensing || cycle. Many are actually running OSS experiments. How many of || those running experiments intend to move, I don;t know and don't || care. AFAICS, it is a bargaining chip in a market that has seen few || economies until OSS came into the mix. || || -- || Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] || || Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. || || "James Curts" wrote in message || ... || Thank you Milly, || I enjoyed and appreciate you view of the situation as it stands. I am || curious to know jus thow MS will counter these sidewise movements or || if they are even concerned at this time. I see France has jumped || onto the wagon also but makes no commitment at this time. || As much bemoaning of MS as we hear it is to our advantage from a much || broader view to support them. Fragmentation of an industry seldom || brings us the long term answers we need in a healthy business and || commercially active nation. While an idea may emerge in a man's mind || while standing at a street corner it is the large and well || established entity which generally puts the product on the shelves. || Again, Thanks || Jim Curts || "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" || wrote in message || ... ||| I think the main issue here is the assumption that the moves are ||| "anti-MS" and not pro-cook your own. There are many compelling ||| reasons to use OSS for ||| public entities - mainly the ability to use open standards which ||| everyone, using the OS platform of their choice, will be able to ||| access. ||| ||| Using Word, as an example, for all gov't documents requires that ||| users either have Word, a Word compatible program (may cost money) ||| or download the ||| Word viewer (internet charges from the ISP). However, using .pdf ||| may be the ||| better choice as most programs that include a .pdf for ||| documentation also include the free Acrobat Reader. While the ||| WordViewer from Office Downloads ||| works fine, again there is the charge for Internet Access. ||| ||| I completely understand why the public sector looks to save money, ||| become more open in their standards, support multiple platform ||| access, etc. I do ||| question the costs for the conversion versus the actual number of ||| public served. ||| ||| Take for example, the apocryphal numbers. Windows/Office owns about ||| 90-95% ||| of the desktop (subject to arguments with each side citing ||| unsupported numbers). Ergo, 90-95% of the users should be able to ||| access any document, ||| spreadsheet, informational pamphlet, etc. created using Microsoft ||| Office. So, where does the alleged cost savings come into play? ||| Read with an open mind: ||| ||| Take my agency (yes, I work for a public sector agency) for an ||| example. We ||| use proprietary payroll, HR, Database, etc. systems, (not ||| Microsoft), other ||| software solutions built only for Windows with no other platform ||| compatibility (Attachmate for accessing mainframe environments), ||| and have automated literally thousands of mundane activities using ||| Macros, both from ||| Microsoft and Attachmate. ||| ||| All of our systems are built around Microsoft and Microsoft ||| compatible software. We are the largest state economy in America ||| and the 5th largest in the world. ||| ||| Okay, now take away Microsoft, retrain all of our IT staff (rather, ||| those who want to be retrained rather than go to another agency or ||| private sector ||| where their skills will be welcome), hire programmers who are ||| familiar with ||| OSS programming - OOPS!!! We are under a hiring freeze and have ||| been for 3 years - factor in retraining for all staff in the ||| applications that come with OSS (yes, retrain them = there are ||| people here who yelp for help when a ||| toolbar disappears), and remain productive the entire time and meet ||| your federal and state service levels. ||| ||| This is much more involved than a religious war and should be taken ||| more seriously by folks who say, dump _____________ (insert your ||| system of choice ||| here) and go to ______________ (insert your religious system of ||| choice here). ||| ||| Just my $1.25 - hey, it took a lot to type all of this and try to ||| get it right while including the major obstacles to "just moving" ||| to OSS. ||| ||| There is a reason it will take Munich 4-5 years to complete the ||| transition. ||| For many, the pain points are more expensive than the cost of ||| remaining with ||| proprietary solutions. And, remember, Munich is using VMWare to ||| mimic the Windows/Office environments until their solution is ||| complete several years into the future. ||| ||| ||| -- ||| Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] ||| ||| Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. Due to ||| the (insert latest virus name here) virus, all mail sent to my ||| personal account will be deleted without reading. ||| ||| After searching google.groups.com and finding no answer, James Curts ||| asked: ||| |||||| GRIN |||| |||| You win the Pooh Bear Award for missing the point of it all. |||| |||| I had hoped one of the gurus may have been able to shed some light |||| on how MS intends to counter the European's anti MS issue. There |||| are possible solutions which could have very favorable results for |||| domestic markets as well. As mentioned before, I have no intention |||| of moving away from MS at this time but obtaining some relief in |||| the upgrade portion alone would be welcome. |||| |||| Jim Curts |||| |||| |||| "Mercury" wrote in message |||| ... ||||| I suppose that is better than irrelevant postings like yours, that ||||| belong *in* the *toilet*, Jimmy! As I said this is a *technical* ||||| newsgroup, which you seem unable to comprehend, with your anti-MS ||||| screed. ||||| ||||| "James Curts" wrote in message ||||| ... |||||| I posted this in the hopes someone working more closely to the MS |||||| folks had knowledgeable opinions regarding issues which prompted |||||| the European countries to move a way from the MS products. |||||| |||||| I and other business folk tend to follow along with the news and |||||| even these informal little sources of ongoing trends, issues and |||||| solutions. |||||| |||||| Since you had nothing to contribute it would follow that you may |||||| just be a trollette. |||||| |||||| Thank you |||||| |||||| Jim Curts |||||| |||||| |||||| "Mercury" wrote in message |||||| ... ||||||| Since this is a technical newgroup, we will assume you posted ||||||| this because you are a troll? ||||||| ||||||| ||||||| "James Curts" wrote in message ||||||| ... |||||||| Hmmm, inversely, we did not defeat Norway nor do them any harm. |||||||| As I recall from reading WWII history it was Germany that |||||||| treated Norway rather crassly. The joining of efforts in this |||||||| instance does not hold up to some dissagreement in the 1940's. |||||||| |||||||| It may be interesting to see how far they will go toward |||||||| cutting off their nose to spite their faces, if indeed that is |||||||| the case. |||||||| |||||||| Looking back a bit further in this mid tech struggle it is |||||||| noted that European and Asian peoples are working toward a |||||||| competent OS to replace MS with significantly less expensive |||||||| systems. I would not take that to insinuate an |||||||| "ANTI-AMERICANISM" thing but an effort to move ahead |||||||| indipendently in the busy and fast paced world of computing. |||||||| |||||||| I mention this only as an item of interest. I have no intention |||||||| of moving from MS in the near future strictly because of the |||||||| momentum and passive acceptance of their programs in business |||||||| and industry. |||||||| |||||||| Jim Curts |||||||| |||||||| Microsoft Preferred Customer" |||||||| wrote in message |||||||| ... ||||||||| This is meerely ANTI-AMERICANISM. They lost the war (Germany) ||||||||| and we don't invite them annually to celebrate VE-DAY and so ||||||||| forth. It can be painful when you loose the war. ||||||||| ||||||||| Nothing to worry. From 99% coverage of Ms products it has ||||||||| gone down to ||||||||| 98.9999999999%. Not a big dent in annual revenues considering ||||||||| the fact that Europe has always practised protectionism when ||||||||| it comes to trading with the US. When time comes they will ||||||||| crawl back for US (and British) assistance especially when ||||||||| terrorists strikes them!! France and Germany have sabotaged |||| UN ||||||| votes |||||||| many ||||||||| times but we don't forget these things so easily!. ||||||||| ||||||||| Hopefully England will deal with them in a game of Football in ||||||||| EURO 2004 semi-final. Watch the space he ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||| | http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ts/default.stm ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||||||| James Curts wrote: ||||||||| |||||||||| If anyone has been following the MS sales pitch in Europe: |||||||||| |||||||||| City of Munich, Germany will switch to Linux. The change will |||||||||| officially take place on July 1, 2004 and 14,000 desktops |||||||||| will permanently migrate from MS and MS Office to open source |||||||||| software and OpenOffice. They |||| will ||||||| call |||||||| for |||||||||| all municipal PCs and notebooks to be changed over by 2008. |||||||||| |||||||||| Bergen, Norway announced it would be following in Munich's |||||||||| footsteps. |||||||||| |||||||||| Evidently OO has something going for itself after all. |||||||||| |||||||||| What is MS doing to counter this exodis? It seems these and |||||||||| other municipalities do not want MS Office even in |||||||||| streamlined versions with training and perks thrown in. |||||||||| |||||||||| Surely this can not just be a Euro thing......... |||||||||| |||||||||| Jim Curts
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#15
June 20th, 2004, 07:13 PM
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MS sales in Europe
Such a bit of venom on an otherwise pleasant day.
I find it of interest and comforting to be able to contact and appreciate a person who may just make a difference. Perhaps you will enlighten us to with your contributiions and accomplishments up to this point in time. This group seems to always have listeners............... Jim Curts wrote in message ... This woman says: "Being an Outlook MVP, we have developed a close working and social relationship with a number of folks" Perhaps this is the beginning of the end o M$ as it stands and this Newsgroup. There is no room for rude and complacent idiots such as this woman. Little wonder the traffic on this Newsgroup has reduced. Jo "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote: Well, I guess I should not have added that "ask Microsoft" part as I understand that sometimes getting information on sensitive business plans, software development movement, etc. is hard for the general public. As an MVP, we have a bit of a closer relationship, depending on the product group to which your product belongs. Being an Outlook MVP, we have developed a close working and social relationship with a number of folks on the Outlook/Office team and may enjoy more open exchanges of information than other MVPs. However, that is one area where I really appreciate the value that Microsoft placed on my technical contributions to the improvement of user experiences. I enjoy the interaction with the Outlook product team and have seen several ideas that the Outlook MVPs have bandied about actually implemented in the product. -- Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. Due to the (insert latest virus name here) virus, all mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without reading. After searching google.groups.com and finding no answer, James Curts asked: | Again Thanks, | | Oddly enough as this conversation is going, I (we) had to move over | one hundred machines in one complex from WordPerfect to Word to | facilitate communications. Cost, in this instance, was not a deciding | issue and even while demanding a bit of retraining. Interoffice and | outbound communications was becoming more of a challenge with each | year. Just the conversion glitches in faxs, emails, etc. as well as | financial, legal and proprietary files, papers, with our business | associates dictated we all be on the same platform. | | So, I wish the desenting part of the world lots of luck but it just | may be a bit up hill for them. | | Ask Microsoft? Surely you jest............ ;-} | | Take care | | Jim Curts | | | | "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" | wrote in message | ... || The views expressed are completely my own coming from a public sector || employer and looking to the future. We have already committed to || Windows/Exchange/Office 2003 for our next upgrade and are not || looking back. We (my agency) looked at the costs and potential || savings and it was a wash. The pain points were most of the deciding || factor. || || If you want to ask what Microsoft is doing to counter the anti-MS || sentiment and concurrent attempts (note this with interest) to move || away from it, ask Microsoft. I neither work for them, am an agent || for them, or have any vested interest in their success or failure as || a software company. Many of the "Linux Switchers" are using OSS as || a bargaining chip to wrest smaller costs for the next licensing || cycle. Many are actually running OSS experiments. How many of || those running experiments intend to move, I don;t know and don't || care. AFAICS, it is a bargaining chip in a market that has seen few || economies until OSS came into the mix. || || -- || Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] || || Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. || || "James Curts" wrote in message || ... || Thank you Milly, || I enjoyed and appreciate you view of the situation as it stands. I am || curious to know jus thow MS will counter these sidewise movements or || if they are even concerned at this time. I see France has jumped || onto the wagon also but makes no commitment at this time. || As much bemoaning of MS as we hear it is to our advantage from a much || broader view to support them. Fragmentation of an industry seldom || brings us the long term answers we need in a healthy business and || commercially active nation. While an idea may emerge in a man's mind || while standing at a street corner it is the large and well || established entity which generally puts the product on the shelves. || Again, Thanks || Jim Curts || "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" || wrote in message || ... ||| I think the main issue here is the assumption that the moves are ||| "anti-MS" and not pro-cook your own. There are many compelling ||| reasons to use OSS for ||| public entities - mainly the ability to use open standards which ||| everyone, using the OS platform of their choice, will be able to ||| access. ||| ||| Using Word, as an example, for all gov't documents requires that ||| users either have Word, a Word compatible program (may cost money) ||| or download the ||| Word viewer (internet charges from the ISP). However, using .pdf ||| may be the ||| better choice as most programs that include a .pdf for ||| documentation also include the free Acrobat Reader. While the ||| WordViewer from Office Downloads ||| works fine, again there is the charge for Internet Access. ||| ||| I completely understand why the public sector looks to save money, ||| become more open in their standards, support multiple platform ||| access, etc. I do ||| question the costs for the conversion versus the actual number of ||| public served. ||| ||| Take for example, the apocryphal numbers. Windows/Office owns about ||| 90-95% ||| of the desktop (subject to arguments with each side citing ||| unsupported numbers). Ergo, 90-95% of the users should be able to ||| access any document, ||| spreadsheet, informational pamphlet, etc. created using Microsoft ||| Office. So, where does the alleged cost savings come into play? ||| Read with an open mind: ||| ||| Take my agency (yes, I work for a public sector agency) for an ||| example. We ||| use proprietary payroll, HR, Database, etc. systems, (not ||| Microsoft), other ||| software solutions built only for Windows with no other platform ||| compatibility (Attachmate for accessing mainframe environments), ||| and have automated literally thousands of mundane activities using ||| Macros, both from ||| Microsoft and Attachmate. ||| ||| All of our systems are built around Microsoft and Microsoft ||| compatible software. We are the largest state economy in America ||| and the 5th largest in the world. ||| ||| Okay, now take away Microsoft, retrain all of our IT staff (rather, ||| those who want to be retrained rather than go to another agency or ||| private sector ||| where their skills will be welcome), hire programmers who are ||| familiar with ||| OSS programming - OOPS!!! We are under a hiring freeze and have ||| been for 3 years - factor in retraining for all staff in the ||| applications that come with OSS (yes, retrain them = there are ||| people here who yelp for help when a ||| toolbar disappears), and remain productive the entire time and meet ||| your federal and state service levels. ||| ||| This is much more involved than a religious war and should be taken ||| more seriously by folks who say, dump _____________ (insert your ||| system of choice ||| here) and go to ______________ (insert your religious system of ||| choice here). ||| ||| Just my $1.25 - hey, it took a lot to type all of this and try to ||| get it right while including the major obstacles to "just moving" ||| to OSS. ||| ||| There is a reason it will take Munich 4-5 years to complete the ||| transition. ||| For many, the pain points are more expensive than the cost of ||| remaining with ||| proprietary solutions. And, remember, Munich is using VMWare to ||| mimic the Windows/Office environments until their solution is ||| complete several years into the future. ||| ||| ||| -- ||| Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook] ||| ||| Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. Due to ||| the (insert latest virus name here) virus, all mail sent to my ||| personal account will be deleted without reading. ||| ||| After searching google.groups.com and finding no answer, James Curts ||| asked: ||| |||||| GRIN |||| |||| You win the Pooh Bear Award for missing the point of it all. |||| |||| I had hoped one of the gurus may have been able to shed some light |||| on how MS intends to counter the European's anti MS issue. There |||| are possible solutions which could have very favorable results for |||| domestic markets as well. As mentioned before, I have no intention |||| of moving away from MS at this time but obtaining some relief in |||| the upgrade portion alone would be welcome. |||| |||| Jim Curts |||| |||| |||| "Mercury" wrote in message |||| ... ||||| I suppose that is better than irrelevant postings like yours, that ||||| belong *in* the *toilet*, Jimmy! As I said this is a *technical* ||||| newsgroup, which you seem unable to comprehend, with your anti-MS ||||| screed. ||||| ||||| "James Curts" wrote in message ||||| ... |||||| I posted this in the hopes someone working more closely to the MS |||||| folks had knowledgeable opinions regarding issues which prompted |||||| the European countries to move a way from the MS products. |||||| |||||| I and other business folk tend to follow along with the news and |||||| even these informal little sources of ongoing trends, issues and |||||| solutions. |||||| |||||| Since you had nothing to contribute it would follow that you may |||||| just be a trollette. |||||| |||||| Thank you |||||| |||||| Jim Curts |||||| |||||| |||||| "Mercury" wrote in message |||||| ... ||||||| Since this is a technical newgroup, we will assume you posted ||||||| this because you are a troll? ||||||| ||||||| ||||||| "James Curts" wrote in message ||||||| ... |||||||| Hmmm, inversely, we did not defeat Norway nor do them any harm. |||||||| As I recall from reading WWII history it was Germany that |||||||| treated Norway rather crassly. The joining of efforts in this |||||||| instance does not hold up to some dissagreement in the 1940's. |||||||| |||||||| It may be interesting to see how far they will go toward |||||||| cutting off their nose to spite their faces, if indeed that is |||||||| the case. |||||||| |||||||| Looking back a bit further in this mid tech struggle it is |||||||| noted that European and Asian peoples are working toward a |||||||| competent OS to replace MS with significantly less expensive |||||||| systems. I would not take that to insinuate an |||||||| "ANTI-AMERICANISM" thing but an effort to move ahead |||||||| indipendently in the busy and fast paced world of computing. |||||||| |||||||| I mention this only as an item of interest. I have no intention |||||||| of moving from MS in the near future strictly because of the |||||||| momentum and passive acceptance of their programs in business |||||||| and industry. |||||||| |||||||| Jim Curts |||||||| |||||||| " |||||||| wrote in message |||||||| ... ||||||||| This is meerely ANTI-AMERICANISM. They lost the war (Germany) ||||||||| and we don't invite them annually to celebrate VE-DAY and so ||||||||| forth. It can be painful when you loose the war. ||||||||| ||||||||| Nothing to worry. From 99% coverage of Ms products it has ||||||||| gone down to ||||||||| 98.9999999999%. Not a big dent in annual revenues considering ||||||||| the fact that Europe has always practised protectionism when ||||||||| it comes to trading with the US. When time comes they will ||||||||| crawl back for US (and British) assistance especially when ||||||||| terrorists strikes them!! France and Germany have sabotaged |||| UN ||||||| votes |||||||| many ||||||||| times but we don't forget these things so easily!. ||||||||| ||||||||| Hopefully England will deal with them in a game of Football in ||||||||| EURO 2004 semi-final. Watch the space he ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||| | http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ts/default.stm ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||||||| James Curts wrote: ||||||||| |||||||||| If anyone has been following the MS sales pitch in Europe: |||||||||| |||||||||| City of Munich, Germany will switch to Linux. The change will |||||||||| officially take place on July 1, 2004 and 14,000 desktops |||||||||| will permanently migrate from MS and MS Office to open source |||||||||| software and OpenOffice. They |||| will ||||||| call |||||||| for |||||||||| all municipal PCs and notebooks to be changed over by 2008. |||||||||| |||||||||| Bergen, Norway announced it would be following in Munich's |||||||||| footsteps. |||||||||| |||||||||| Evidently OO has something going for itself after all. |||||||||| |||||||||| What is MS doing to counter this exodis? It seems these and |||||||||| other municipalities do not want MS Office even in |||||||||| streamlined versions with training and perks thrown in. |||||||||| |||||||||| Surely this can not just be a Euro thing......... |||||||||| |||||||||| Jim Curts
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