OE Is Deleting My NG Headers

"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Neil wrote:

Yes, I understand that. I've gotten that many times. No problem. I
don't expect to be able to get messages that are no longer available.

What I'm saying is: AFTER a message body is ALREADY downloaded, it
shouldn't be deleted from my hard drive without my permission.


It has always been that way. It is not going to change!

Not in my experience. It hasn't always been that way.


All I know is that I used to download headers, and headers would stay
in the newsgroup folder.

Not if they had expired on the server!

Again, NIME.


I would download message bodies, and they
would stay in the folder as well. (Or, more precisely, in the DBX.)

Not if they had expired on the server!


Again, NIME.


There was never a problem with messages that were already downloaded.
OE was able to just keep them on the hard drive, and add to them as
new messages became available.

Not if they had expired on the server!

Again, NIME.



Then there came a point where OE changed and started deleting old
messages and headers. But it didn't used to do that.

If there ever was a change it was before OE4 i.e before 1999.


So whatever your reason is that OE has to delete old messages and
headers, I say: no it doesn't. It used to not do that, and there's no
reason to do it.

And that's what I'm saying is wrong. And OE used to not do that. And
it was fine.

Microsoft are not going to change the existing state of affairs.

And there, I agree. I came to this newsgroup to see if anyone had any
suggestions for how to get OE to work the way it used to. The responses I've
gotten have been in one of three kinds:

Group 1: OE has always worked this way, and it should work that way, because
that's how a newsgroup reader works, and I'm glad it does. (I suspect those
in this group use the synchronization settings, which is why they say that
"it's always worked this way").

Group 2: Yeah, OE used to not work this way, but then it changed. People
complained about it, but Microsoft hasn't done anything about it. Don't
expect any change. (And that makes sense to me and agrees with what I
expereienced, that it used to not work that way).

Group 3: OE doesn't work that way. I don't experience what you're referring
to. (And this is the group I was looking for when I came here, presuming
they're correct that is.)

So, since you're clearly in Group 1; and since we've established that I
disagree with Group 1 (though not with Group 2), there's really no reason to
continue this discussion, is there? You've made your points, I've heard
them, let's move on.



If something is downloaded to my hard drive, it should stay there.


Again, I shouldn't have to do that. And OE didn't previously require
that. It's a ridiculous thing.

That's the way it is. Move or lose!

Got it.



Gonna start looking into other newsgroup readers.

If you update from Windows XP you will have to do that anyway.

Really? OE isn't supported in Vista? I didn't know that. So it really is a
dying product. Even more reason to switch.

Thanks.



--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You keep ignoring what others have mentioned. How long OE retains an
article in its local database depends on how long the news server keeps
that same article.

Ignoring and disagreeing are not the same thing. So, in a sense, you're
ignoring what I'm saying.

But, really, what's the point of this discussion? Do you think that going
over the same thing again is going to get me to agree with you? OE used to
not work this way, and others here have said the same thing. So your
statement that "this is how a newsgroup reader works" is false, or at least
based on limited exposure on your part. But let's just move on, OK?


Contact your newsgroups provider to ask if they reduced their retention
interval. It is also possible they rebuilt their article database (and
the accompanying overview database). That could result in changing the
article numbers of the posts that were on that NNTP server. When the
newsgroups provider does this, you have to reset the newsgroup (i.e.,
clear out all the old locally cached copies of the posts) and revisit
the newsgroup to redownload all those posts.

Not the case.


So you might have to reset the newsgroups and rebuild your local copies
of the posts. Right-click on a newsgroup folder, Properties, and reset
the folder. Then revisit the folder to retrieve all those posts again.

The messages are still there. Just many of them are gone.

It does make sense. Apart from differences only available by using
a synchronize command the main thing that you need to be aware of
is the Get 300 headers... option and the fact that its value is used to
do
an automatic Get Next 300... every time you enter a newsgroup when you
are in a Working Online state.

I don't have any problem getting headers. OE gets them for me automatically
when I enter a newsgroup. No problem. And I have it set to 1,000, not 300.
So the Next 1,000 command works fine too. No problem there. But that has
nothing to do with what I'm saying.


If you don't want that to happen,
either don't enter that newsgroup or enter it with Work Offline set.

I do want it to happen. And it's happening. No problem.


If you don't have the Get next 300... option checked the automatic
Get next done for you has the equivalent effect of a Synchronize
Newsgroup command done while the Synchronize settings are
Headers Only.

OK.


And, like I said, didn't used to be that way. I remember a point where OE
would keep downloaded headers indefinitely.


Was this with a different NNTP server? In any case servers change
how they act over time and they may also be set up to serve different
newsgroups differently.

I can't say if it was a different one, or when exactly it changed. I
remember, though, that headers would stay indefinitely, and I had at least a
years' worth of headers in one particular newsgroup. One day I was playing
aroudn with the synchronization settings, and then I lost all my headers! I
was aghast. So I changed it back to No Synchronization. But ever since then,
it kept deleting old headers, though it never did it before I played around
with the synchronization settings.

But that was on a different PC anyway. This laptop is only about six months
old, and that was a few years ago that it happened. So anything that
happened on that PC wouldn't affect what happens on this PC (and I didn't
bring my message stores over from another PC or anything). So, even though I
can trace the point in time when it changed to when I changed the
synchronization settings (and then changed back to No Synchronization), that
wouldn't explain why it's happening on this PC, which had a new install of
OE.

Neil

"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Robert

Also, what's the point of having a "Delete news messages X days
after being downloaded" if OE is just going to delete them anyway,
regardless of the setting. Again, doesn't make sense.


Makes perfect sense if someone only wants to keep a weeks worth
of posts in his cache instead of a much larger number that the server
might support.

Your comment is correct . It was logical. It was also part of one of the
most disastrous and problematic features of Outlook Express. Compacting.
Checking this feature was blamed for countless losses of messages.
Automatic compacting was abandoned by users in favour of manual compacting
Offline. The changes made to automatic compacting not so long ago
improved the situation but did not totally resolve the problem. Manual
compacting before automatic compacting is triggered remains the safest
option. The option to "Delete news messages X days after being downloaded"
should have been removed when the other changes were made.


When does automatic compacting take place?

Answer at Bottom...
-
"Neil" wrote in message
...
"Doug W." stand@attention wrote in message
...
Neil: I don't have the problem you describe, perhaps you
should re-check ALL of your OE settings and start over from
scratch.

I looked and looked and couldn't find anything to change.
You're saying that old messages stay in your newsgroup folders
until you delete them? That's the way OE used to work for me.

Under Tools, Options, Maintenance, I had under "When
compacting messages", the "Delete news messages" option
unchecked (figuring that would keep them on the hard drive).
The thought came to me that perhaps there's a glitch in OE
when that's unchecked. So I checked it, and set it to 999
days. See if that works better.

Either way, I didn't compact my messages anyway, so that
shouldn't have come into play.

In any case, I'm curious what settings you have, and how they
may differ from mine. Would you mind looking at yours and
telling me how they differ from mine, noted below? I'd
appreciate it.

Thanks!

Neil

==== Settings =====

Tools | Options | Maintenance: all items unchecked except
Delete News Messages (set to 999 days)
-
Same - except for Delete News Messages - checked but I set mine
at 5 days as I don't want them any longer than that. If I
haven't dealt with them by that time, then I don't bother. I
used to have this set longer but didn't see the point in it.
Actually, I usually highlight and delete them after I have read
them or selectively delete and just leave the interesting ones
or ones I have replied to.

Tools | Accounts | News | Properties (for my newsgroup
account):
"Include this account when checking for new messages":
unchecked
Advanced tab: everything unchecked
-
Only have Use newsgroup descriptions checked.


All individual newsgroups set to Don't Synchronize
-
I set mine at Synchronize - New messages only.
-
One thing that you might do is uncheck and then re-check
settings. I found long ago that Windows occasionally SHOWED
something as being checked but in reality it wasn't. Re-doing
the checks or unchecking as the case may be, will refresh or
reinforce the settings. Can't hurt.
-

"Neil" wrote in message ...
It does make sense. Apart from differences only available by using
a synchronize command the main thing that you need to be aware of
is the Get 300 headers... option and the fact that its value is used to
do
an automatic Get Next 300... every time you enter a newsgroup when you
are in a Working Online state.


....
So the Next 1,000 command works fine too. No problem there.

But that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.


You snipped the context of my explanation.
I was showing you that you are confusing "synchronization"
which supports OE's synchronization commands
with the automatic deletion of expired headers.
The latter is separate from the synchronization commands
and happens every time a Get... is done, whether by request
or automatically when you enter the newsgroup.




If you don't want that to happen,
either don't enter that newsgroup or enter it with Work Offline set.

I do want it to happen. And it's happening. No problem.


Then that's why expired headers are being deleted and when
they are being deleted.




If you don't have the Get next 300... option checked the automatic
Get next done for you has the equivalent effect of a Synchronize
Newsgroup command done while the Synchronize settings are
Headers Only.

OK.


And, like I said, didn't used to be that way. I remember a point where OE
would keep downloaded headers indefinitely.


Was this with a different NNTP server? In any case servers change
how they act over time and they may also be set up to serve different
newsgroups differently.

I can't say if it was a different one, or when exactly it changed. I
remember, though, that headers would stay indefinitely, and I had at least a
years' worth of headers in one particular newsgroup.


The newsgroup in this context is probably irrelevant.
It's the server and what it does about changing the start number
in its 211 reply to group requests that determines which messages
have been removed from the server's archive and therefore which
ones OE removes from its cache.


One day I was playing aroudn with the synchronization settings,
and then I lost all my headers!


Too bad you didn't get a trace of that.
As Vanguard explained that can happen
if the server is reorganized or if you do a Reset.


I
was aghast. So I changed it back to No Synchronization. But ever since then,
it kept deleting old headers, though it never did it before I played around
with the synchronization settings.


I agree with Vanguard this looks like a coincidental reorganization
of the server's archive, probably with a change in retention policy.
The numbers would all change so you would have to do a Reset.



But that was on a different PC anyway. This laptop is only about six months
old, and that was a few years ago that it happened. So anything that
happened on that PC wouldn't affect what happens on this PC (and I didn't
bring my message stores over from another PC or anything). So, even though I
can trace the point in time when it changed to when I changed the
synchronization settings (and then changed back to No Synchronization), that
wouldn't explain why it's happening on this PC, which had a new install of
OE.


Again, I think you are ignoring the possibility that either you changed
your server (in which case you could have encountered new retention
policies) or the server you have been using also changed its retention
policies.


Robert
---

Of Course...

He stupidly ignores all sorts of useful things he's being told here.

So, ignorantly, he just throws grenades at Microsoft...

Instead of reading, listening and thinking.

Thicko...
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor

"Robert Aldwinckle" wrote in message
...

"Neil" wrote in message
...

Again, I think you are ignoring the possibility that either you changed
your server (in which case you could have encountered new retention
policies) or the server you have been using also changed its retention
policies.


Robert

Neil

An extract from one of my posts from February 2004.

A factor in storing messages is the time news messages are held on the
news server. Practice varies from server to server. Microsoft were
holding for 90 days but there have been reports that this has been
reduced for some groups to 60 days. Generally other servers hold
messages for lesser periods, even as little as 24 hours. A design
feature of Outlook Express is that when a newsgroup is synchronised a
comparison is made of messages held on your computer with those held on
the server. Messages not previously downloaded are downloaded according
to certain rules and any messages which have expired on the server are
removed from the user's computer. The only way for the user to prevent
removal is not to synchronise the group or to move or copy the messages
to a local mail folder before they expire on the server.

Create Archive News Folders as sub-folders of Local Folder. Move or copy
news messages to these folders before they expire on the server. To
create folders place cursor on Local Folder and select File, Folder,
New. If you decide to use the Move command you need to select Edit,
Find, Message whilst Online ( preferably not connected ), use before
"date" as search criteria, select messages, right click to obtain the
Move to Folder command and point to the newly created Archive folder.

I use Edit, Select All to select messages but you can hold down the Ctrl
key, select any number of messages before using to Move to Folder
command.

A minor refinement introduced in 2007. Place the cursor on
msnews.microsoft.com, select Edit, Find etc, click on the Browse button
to select first newsgroup and use the Move to Folder etc. As soon as the
messages start to move click on msnews.microsoft.com and for some reason
the process becomes quicker so that you can move through 20 or whatever
folders in double quick time.

This method may not suit many users. I download bodies not headers so
folders in terms of file size are much larger than for a user who only
downloads headers and bodies for those messages they choose to read. If
you have any headers without bodies the bodies are downloaded and all
moved to the mail folder. Take care to ensure you are Online when you
execute the Move to Folder command as if you are Offline the Copy to
Folder command is executed. You then have an extra operation, which is
to delete the "moved" messages from the newsgroup folder.

Manual compacting after archiving messages is essential.

In Outlook Express place the cursor on Local Folders and select File,
Work Offline followed by File, Folder, Compact All. Do not attempt to
interupt or stop the process until it has completed. When it has
completed close and reopen Outlook Express and see if all is
well. Run Disk CleanUp and Disk Defragmenter.

--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Neil wrote:
"Gerry" wrote in message
...
VanguardLH

I archive news posts. I do this every 14 days.

Would you mind telling me your process for doing this?

Thanks.

Neil

On closing Outlook Express 100 times. On some systems something changes
the counter in the Registry when it is not intended so automatic
compacting can be triggered quite a bit earlier. The counter is meant to
increment by one on closure but something else cause the counter to
increment at other times. Bruce Hagen writes about this regularly. It
doesn't happen here.

--



Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Neil wrote:
"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Robert

Also, what's the point of having a "Delete news messages X days
after being downloaded" if OE is just going to delete them anyway,
regardless of the setting. Again, doesn't make sense.


Makes perfect sense if someone only wants to keep a weeks worth
of posts in his cache instead of a much larger number that the
server might support.

Your comment is correct . It was logical. It was also part of one of
the most disastrous and problematic features of Outlook Express.
Compacting. Checking this feature was blamed for countless losses of
messages. Automatic compacting was abandoned by users in favour of
manual compacting Offline. The changes made to automatic compacting
not so long ago improved the situation but did not totally resolve
the problem. Manual compacting before automatic compacting is
triggered remains the safest option. The option to "Delete news
messages X days after being downloaded" should have been removed
when the other changes were made.


When does automatic compacting take place?

[OMG, now Gerry's got MasterPosts! eek]

Gerry wrote:
Neil

An extract from one of my posts from February 2004.

A factor in storing messages is the time news messages are held on the
news server...