4th July Rules!

"Norman Harker" wrote in message
...
Hi Harlan!

Full disclosure.

No guns now or ever. Never needed one.

Pro war on Iraq but only with support of UN and Moslem nations. But
that doesn't stop me being ****ed off with the UN decision and
prevailing anti-Americanism. "What have the Americans ever done for
us?" (Life of Brian style).

Agreed, the Americans have done many good things, but their leaders (FDR
excepted) rarely have. And it is not prevailing anti-Americanism to complain
about a country that tries to force it's resolution on the UN, and when that
body says no, states that the UN is irrelevant and is avoiding the issue
(i.e. disagree with the US and you are an appeaser, an avoider), and then
when it gets in a mess tries to get the UN to join in then, and then even
tries to get Nato involved (i.e. anything to give legitimacy to their
actions when they gave no credence to other views before), and so on and so
forth, ad nauseum. Bush is even trying to tell the EU who they should admit
now (that human rights paragon, Turkey).

The US government is a bullying administration that is taking this world
into dangerous, unchartered territory that I fear will have disastrous
consequences. Previous administrations can take the credit for the birth of
Al-Qaeeda (Regan, Bush Snr.), Clinton can take credit for making them a
potent force, and this Bush administration has given them an international
platform.

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:46:44 -0700, Ragdyer wrote:

" PS Frightening to read views such as recently expressed on
gun-control."

Gun control is really a double edged sword, where one edge (crime) seems to
garner the most publicity.

I agree in a sense, Sweden is one of the more gun dense countries, mainly
rifles and shotguns and due to the yearly moose hunt which basically stops
the country in many areas, however the rules are strict.. I wonder what the
framers would have thought about assault weapons and Uzi type of guns?


The other edge is the one that the framers of the Constitution had in mind
at the outset, the ability of the "people" to protect themselves ... from
the government.
Believe me, I'm no camo dressed, gun toting, militia trained, Red Neck
(sorry Peo, that's your present neighborhood).

LOL! Actually Northern Virginia is rather civilized..

I do work with a fellow who came to the U.S. from Hungary in the early '70s.
Ask him about national gun control.
He'll spit in your eye!
Ask my grandfather, when he left Poland to come here, about his guns.
And he wasn't even Jewish.

Of course ... it'll never happen here!?!?
Anybody read the "Home Security" laws *now* on the books, not even
addressing the ones in committee, with a good chance of approval.

911 has done more to hurt the fabric of this country then *any* of the
previous conflicts.
They all gathered us together.
And we thought that Viet Nam split us!

BUT ... I'm rambling !

A HAPPY AND SAFE FOURTH TO ALL !

Same to you..


--
Regards,

Peo Sjoblom

(No private emails please, for everyone's
benefit keep the discussion in the newsgroup/forum)

"Agreed, the Americans have done many good things, but their leaders (FDR
excepted) rarely have"

Do you read what you write?

Are you really that uninformed, to actually think that I, as an individual
American citizen, have the power to "do many good things", on an
international basis, unilaterally?
You really don't comprehend that it's the *leadership* of this country that
is responsible for the good, as well as the bad things that "we" do?
And if the good out numbers the bad, where do you think the credit lies?

Perhaps, you might say, it is the goal to attain re-election that drives the
leadership to it's "higher plain".

In this Democracy, it is a truism that, the office makes the man, and *not*
the other way around!
--
Regards,

RD

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...
"Norman Harker" wrote in message
...
Hi Harlan!

Full disclosure.

No guns now or ever. Never needed one.

Pro war on Iraq but only with support of UN and Moslem nations. But
that doesn't stop me being ****ed off with the UN decision and
prevailing anti-Americanism. "What have the Americans ever done for
us?" (Life of Brian style).

Agreed, the Americans have done many good things, but their leaders (FDR
excepted) rarely have. And it is not prevailing anti-Americanism to
complain
about a country that tries to force it's resolution on the UN, and when
that
body says no, states that the UN is irrelevant and is avoiding the issue
(i.e. disagree with the US and you are an appeaser, an avoider), and then
when it gets in a mess tries to get the UN to join in then, and then even
tries to get Nato involved (i.e. anything to give legitimacy to their
actions when they gave no credence to other views before), and so on and
so
forth, ad nauseum. Bush is even trying to tell the EU who they should
admit
now (that human rights paragon, Turkey).

The US government is a bullying administration that is taking this world
into dangerous, unchartered territory that I fear will have disastrous
consequences. Previous administrations can take the credit for the birth
of
Al-Qaeeda (Regan, Bush Snr.), Clinton can take credit for making them a
potent force, and this Bush administration has given them an international
platform.

"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...
The US government is a bullying administration


Unlike us when we exercised gunboat diplomacy g

Sandy

--
to e-mail direct replace @mailintor.com with @tiscali.co.uk

"I wonder what the framers would have thought about assault weapons and
Uzi type of guns?"

There are radicals in all persuasions.

I am a proud, card carrying, life member of the NRA.

I *DON"T* adhere to that wing of the association that purports to the
ideology that *any* type of gun should be permitted into private ownership.
And, I might add, *neither* does the *majority* of the membership.

But, as in anything that creates the bigger headlines, the emphasis is
always on the most drastic opinions.

I don't know the length of time that you've been here Peo, but I'm sure that
your experience with the "average" gun owning American has not been a
frightening experience.
--
Regards,

RD

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please keep all correspondence within the NewsGroup, so all may benefit !
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



"Peo Sjoblom" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:46:44 -0700, Ragdyer wrote:

" PS Frightening to read views such as recently expressed on
gun-control."

Gun control is really a double edged sword, where one edge (crime) seems
to
garner the most publicity.

I agree in a sense, Sweden is one of the more gun dense countries, mainly
rifles and shotguns and due to the yearly moose hunt which basically stops
the country in many areas, however the rules are strict.. I wonder what
the
framers would have thought about assault weapons and Uzi type of guns?


The other edge is the one that the framers of the Constitution had in
mind
at the outset, the ability of the "people" to protect themselves ...
from
the government.
Believe me, I'm no camo dressed, gun toting, militia trained, Red Neck
(sorry Peo, that's your present neighborhood).

LOL! Actually Northern Virginia is rather civilized..

I do work with a fellow who came to the U.S. from Hungary in the early
'70s.
Ask him about national gun control.
He'll spit in your eye!
Ask my grandfather, when he left Poland to come here, about his guns.
And he wasn't even Jewish.

Of course ... it'll never happen here!?!?
Anybody read the "Home Security" laws *now* on the books, not even
addressing the ones in committee, with a good chance of approval.

911 has done more to hurt the fabric of this country then *any* of the
previous conflicts.
They all gathered us together.
And we thought that Viet Nam split us!

BUT ... I'm rambling !

A HAPPY AND SAFE FOURTH TO ALL !

Same to you..


--
Regards,

Peo Sjoblom

(No private emails please, for everyone's
benefit keep the discussion in the newsgroup/forum)

"Bob Phillips" wrote...
....
Agreed, the Americans have done many good things, but their leaders
(FDR excepted) rarely have. . . .

Figures someone from the UK would have a warm spot for FDR. Some over here
might recall his treat to add 6 more justicies to the Supreme Court in order
to bludgeon the existing justices to blink their eyes about the New Deal.
And then there were the Japanese internment camps.

All US presidents have had their warts.

. . . And it is not prevailing anti-Americanism to complain
about a country that tries to force it's resolution on the UN,
and when that body says no, states that the UN is irrelevant and
is avoiding the issue . . .

Agreed. If the US is going to act unilaterally, it shouldn't screw around
with the UN. Note that this is *not* a statement that the US should act
unilaterally or not, just an opinion that fig leaves are ridiculous.

. . . Bush is even trying to tell the EU who they should admit
now (that human rights paragon, Turkey).
....

If recent human rights record is the sine qua non, how did Germany become a
charter member? Perhaps some more enlightened persons believed that having
it in the club was better than having it outside?

Aside from the UK, Turkey has been the US's steadiest ally in Europe since
1945. Much of that no doubt due to the proverbial 'the enemy of my enemy is
my friend' and the USSR sharing a common border. But they went to Korea, and
that still counts for one hell of a lot over here.

. . . Previous administrations can take the credit for the birth of
Al-Qaeeda (Regan, Bush Snr.), Clinton can take credit for making
them a potent force, and this Bush administration has given them an
international platform.

Possibly, and there are times the current administration could be termed
obtuse, but there are historical forces at work as well. Not the least of
which the absolutely wonderful job done by a certain former colonial power
in preparing the Arab world for self-government and drawing its national
boundaries with such wisdom and foresight.

There are those who could claim with more than a kernel of truth that the US
is still just cleaning up the mess left by that other country which I'm just
too polite to name.

Hi Harlan!

US's steadiest ally in Europe since 1945

But in the World as a whole it will be Australia. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq
(Round 1), Afghanistan, Iraq (Round 2). I don't think any other
country can claim that record (dubious or not depending upon opinion).
In general terms Australia fights with and for its mates, right or
wrong; it's part of the culture of mateship. And I don't think we've
ever rejected any call from the UN for peacekeepers.

--
Regards
Norman Harker MVP (Excel)
Sydney, Australia

RD,

Whilst there is a grain in what you say, it is not the whole.

I didn't suggest "you" have done anything good, internationally, or in any
other way. I was referring to a collective movement that is not politically
directed.

And I would challenge anyone who says that the US leadership have been in
any way responsible for the good things from America, such as the literature
(some great writers and poets), the music (which US leaders have supported
or promoted Blues Jazz or even Rock in their infancies), etc.

No the US is a consumption led economy which is fostered and encouraged by
its political elite, and this is the most dangerous aspect of that country
which as I said, is likely to have disastrous consequences. From where I am,
the single most prized asset that you have is your written constitution,
born out of your founding fathers experiences of other (European?)
countries, which protects your fundamental freedoms, but does not stop your
excesses. And most of your political leaders since have, in the way that all
political leaders will, tried to circumvent it, and are now even trying to
curb it.

"Ragdyer" wrote in message
...
"Agreed, the Americans have done many good things, but their leaders
(FDR
excepted) rarely have"

Do you read what you write?

Are you really that uninformed, to actually think that I, as an individual
American citizen, have the power to "do many good things", on an
international basis, unilaterally?
You really don't comprehend that it's the *leadership* of this country
that
is responsible for the good, as well as the bad things that "we" do?
And if the good out numbers the bad, where do you think the credit lies?

Perhaps, you might say, it is the goal to attain re-election that drives
the
leadership to it's "higher plain".

In this Democracy, it is a truism that, the office makes the man, and
*not*
the other way around!
--
Regards,

RD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Please keep all correspondence within the NewsGroup, so all may benefit !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...
"Norman Harker" wrote in message
...
Hi Harlan!

Full disclosure.

No guns now or ever. Never needed one.

Pro war on Iraq but only with support of UN and Moslem nations. But
that doesn't stop me being ****ed off with the UN decision and
prevailing anti-Americanism. "What have the Americans ever done for
us?" (Life of Brian style).

Agreed, the Americans have done many good things, but their leaders (FDR
excepted) rarely have. And it is not prevailing anti-Americanism to
complain
about a country that tries to force it's resolution on the UN, and when
that
body says no, states that the UN is irrelevant and is avoiding the
issue
(i.e. disagree with the US and you are an appeaser, an avoider), and
then
when it gets in a mess tries to get the UN to join in then, and then
even
tries to get Nato involved (i.e. anything to give legitimacy to their
actions when they gave no credence to other views before), and so on and
so
forth, ad nauseum. Bush is even trying to tell the EU who they should
admit
now (that human rights paragon, Turkey).

The US government is a bullying administration that is taking this world
into dangerous, unchartered territory that I fear will have disastrous
consequences. Previous administrations can take the credit for the birth
of
Al-Qaeeda (Regan, Bush Snr.), Clinton can take credit for making them a
potent force, and this Bush administration has given them an
international
platform.

Oh no, I agree we were just as bad, but at least in those days we couldn't
destroy the world. Like America we did good as well as bad, but on balance,
was the British Empire a force for good?

--

HTH

Bob Phillips
... looking out across Poole Harbour to the Purbecks
(remove nothere from the email address if mailing direct)

"Sandy Mann" wrote in message
...
"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...
The US government is a bullying administration


Unlike us when we exercised gunboat diplomacy g

Sandy

--
to e-mail direct replace @mailintor.com with @tiscali.co.uk

"Harlan Grove" wrote in message
...

Figures someone from the UK would have a warm spot for FDR. Some over here
might recall his treat to add 6 more justicies to the Supreme Court in
order
to bludgeon the existing justices to blink their eyes about the New Deal.
And then there were the Japanese internment camps.

All US presidents have had their warts.


Undoubtedly true, but was the New Deal a bad thing? And whilst we know the
Japanese internmnet camps were unjustified, did FDR have the power to
resist? Regrettably, I accept that he may have felt that was one battle not
worth pursuing in the overall war.

Agreed. If the US is going to act unilaterally, it shouldn't screw around
with the UN. Note that this is *not* a statement that the US should act
unilaterally or not, just an opinion that fig leaves are ridiculous.

Absolutely. If you are going to ignore everyone, don't pretend that you want
to work with them.

If recent human rights record is the sine qua non, how did Germany become
a
charter member? Perhaps some more enlightened persons believed that having
it in the club was better than having it outside?

I would argue that Germany only became a member of the clube after it had
reformed (whether by own or others efforts), and was not still pursuing
those aberrations.

Aside from the UK, Turkey has been the US's steadiest ally in Europe since
1945. Much of that no doubt due to the proverbial 'the enemy of my enemy
is
my friend' and the USSR sharing a common border. But they went to Korea,
and
that still counts for one hell of a lot over here.

Exactly my point. I am saying that we should not support bad regimes just
beacuse they support once aspect of our policy. This is what led to the
Taliban and Al-Qaeed, the Philippines, Cambodia, and is now happeing in
Uzbekistan etc, etc. We have learnt nothing.

Possibly, and there are times the current administration could be termed
obtuse, but there are historical forces at work as well. Not the least of
which the absolutely wonderful job done by a certain former colonial power
in preparing the Arab world for self-government and drawing its national
boundaries with such wisdom and foresight.

There are those who could claim with more than a kernel of truth that the
US
is still just cleaning up the mess left by that other country which I'm
just
too polite to name.

Politeness aside, we know our history, and our record in the Middle East is
nothing to be proud of. But I don't see the US as cleaning up any mess, they
are more in their own self-interest, and it will come back and bite them
just as it did with us.