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#1
August 2nd, 2009, 04:49 AM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
Hello everybody,
I created a survey questions table with the following fields: SurvID QstnID QstnText QstnCtrlType AnswCtrlType QstnType Grp1ID Grp2ID Grp3ID PageID PageType OrderByID The Group fields imply that each question can belong to a max three independent groups. So, I’ve created another table for Groups with the following fields: SurvID QstnID Grp1ID Grp1Name Grp1Vis Grp2ID Grp2Name Grp2Vis Grp3ID Grp3Name Grp3Vis QstnID is identity incremental field so it’s unique without having SurveyID to be primary key as well. But we need SurveyID for making tables join connections. The number of questions and the questions themselves are different per survey. The questions’ grouping per survey can be different as well. So, the separate table with only groups without SurveyID won’t work. My question is how to link those two tables. Will it work: Questions.SurveyID - Groups.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - Groups.Grp1ID Questions.Grp2ID - Groups.Grp2ID Questions.Grp3ID - Groups.Grp3ID Or it’s needed to be three instances of the table Groups to be linked to the Questions table: Groups as A, Groups As B, and Groups As C: Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - A.Grp1ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp2ID - B.Grp2ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp3ID - C.Grp3ID Or it should be something else? What would be the better practice here? Thanks 
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#2
August 2nd, 2009, 08:51 AM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
Alex,
Check out the link I provide below. Duane Hookom is the creator. This is the description from the site: "At Your Survey (ATS) is a full featured application that allows users to create their own surveys by designing the questions and providing a lookup of possible responses. ATS uses a fairly normalized table structure so the same tables, forms, code, queries, and reports can be used for any number of surveys. There is a brief manual to help you get started as well as a sample survey with data." Link is: http://www.rogersaccesslibrary.com/f...osts.asp?TID=3 Reagrds, Anthony Alex wrote: Hello everybody, I created a survey questions table with the following fields: SurvID QstnID QstnText QstnCtrlType AnswCtrlType QstnType Grp1ID Grp2ID Grp3ID PageID PageType OrderByID The Group fields imply that each question can belong to a max three independent groups. So, I’ve created another table for Groups with the following fields: SurvID QstnID Grp1ID Grp1Name Grp1Vis Grp2ID Grp2Name Grp2Vis Grp3ID Grp3Name Grp3Vis QstnID is identity incremental field so it’s unique without having SurveyID to be primary key as well. But we need SurveyID for making tables join connections. The number of questions and the questions themselves are different per survey. The questions’ grouping per survey can be different as well. So, the separate table with only groups without SurveyID won’t work. My question is how to link those two tables. Will it work: Questions.SurveyID - Groups.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - Groups.Grp1ID Questions.Grp2ID - Groups.Grp2ID Questions.Grp3ID - Groups.Grp3ID Or it’s needed to be three instances of the table Groups to be linked to the Questions table: Groups as A, Groups As B, and Groups As C: Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - A.Grp1ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp2ID - B.Grp2ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp3ID - C.Grp3ID Or it should be something else? What would be the better practice here? Thanks -- Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com
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#3
August 2nd, 2009, 07:08 PM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
Thank you for your reply, biganthony.
I was expecting I would be referred to that site. It’s a nice learning tool. I’m aware of that survey. But, I’ve been requested to use some different approach for grouping when a one question could belong to several independent groups. Please, let’s move away from the survey things as I could name all stuff differently to not focus whether it’s survey or not. I’m asking about tables relationships. If it’s appropriate to set up relationships as I outlined in my question. Thanks "biganthony via AccessMonster.com" wrote: Alex, Check out the link I provide below. Duane Hookom is the creator. This is the description from the site: "At Your Survey (ATS) is a full featured application that allows users to create their own surveys by designing the questions and providing a lookup of possible responses. ATS uses a fairly normalized table structure so the same tables, forms, code, queries, and reports can be used for any number of surveys. There is a brief manual to help you get started as well as a sample survey with data." Link is: http://www.rogersaccesslibrary.com/f...osts.asp?TID=3 Reagrds, Anthony Alex wrote: Hello everybody, I created a survey questions table with the following fields: SurvID QstnID QstnText QstnCtrlType AnswCtrlType QstnType Grp1ID Grp2ID Grp3ID PageID PageType OrderByID The Group fields imply that each question can belong to a max three independent groups. So, I’ve created another table for Groups with the following fields: SurvID QstnID Grp1ID Grp1Name Grp1Vis Grp2ID Grp2Name Grp2Vis Grp3ID Grp3Name Grp3Vis QstnID is identity incremental field so it’s unique without having SurveyID to be primary key as well. But we need SurveyID for making tables join connections. The number of questions and the questions themselves are different per survey. The questions’ grouping per survey can be different as well. So, the separate table with only groups without SurveyID won’t work. My question is how to link those two tables. Will it work: Questions.SurveyID - Groups.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - Groups.Grp1ID Questions.Grp2ID - Groups.Grp2ID Questions.Grp3ID - Groups.Grp3ID Or it’s needed to be three instances of the table Groups to be linked to the Questions table: Groups as A, Groups As B, and Groups As C: Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - A.Grp1ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp2ID - B.Grp2ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp3ID - C.Grp3ID Or it should be something else? What would be the better practice here? Thanks -- Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com
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#4
August 2nd, 2009, 07:43 PM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
Your tables are not correct! Consider this ...
TblSurvey SurveyID SurveyDate etc TblGroup GroupID GroupName GroupVis TblQuestionType QuestionTypeID QuestionType TblQuestion QuestionID SurveyID GroupID QuestionTypeID QuestionText TblAnswer AnswerID QuestionID Identifies who took the survey. Could be EmployeeID, CustomerID, etc. Answer I don't know what PageID, PageType and OrderByID are for so there not included. It is very apparent you are struggling with this database. I can help you! I provide help with Access applications for a small fee. Contact me if you would like my help with your database. Steve "Alex" wrote in message ... Hello everybody, I created a survey questions table with the following fields: SurvID QstnID QstnText QstnCtrlType AnswCtrlType QstnType Grp1ID Grp2ID Grp3ID PageID PageType OrderByID The Group fields imply that each question can belong to a max three independent groups. So, I've created another table for Groups with the following fields: SurvID QstnID Grp1ID Grp1Name Grp1Vis Grp2ID Grp2Name Grp2Vis Grp3ID Grp3Name Grp3Vis QstnID is identity incremental field so it's unique without having SurveyID to be primary key as well. But we need SurveyID for making tables join connections. The number of questions and the questions themselves are different per survey. The questions' grouping per survey can be different as well. So, the separate table with only groups without SurveyID won't work. My question is how to link those two tables. Will it work: Questions.SurveyID - Groups.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - Groups.Grp1ID Questions.Grp2ID - Groups.Grp2ID Questions.Grp3ID - Groups.Grp3ID Or it's needed to be three instances of the table Groups to be linked to the Questions table: Groups as A, Groups As B, and Groups As C: Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - A.Grp1ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp2ID - B.Grp2ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp3ID - C.Grp3ID Or it should be something else? What would be the better practice here? Thanks
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#5
August 2nd, 2009, 07:52 PM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
"Steve" wrote in message
... Your tables are not correct! Consider this ... It is very apparent you are struggling with this database. I can help you! I provide help with Access applications for a small fee. Contact me if you would like my help with your database. Steve WARNING! Stevie is our local troll who pretends to be competent These newsgroups are provided by Microsoft for FREE peer to peer support. There are many highly qualified individuals who gladly help for free. Stevie is not one of them, but he is the only one who just does not get the idea of "FREE" support. He offers questionable results at unreasonable prices. If he was any good, the "thousands" of people he claims to have helped would be flooding him with work, but there appears to be a continuous drought and he needs to constantly grovel for work. A few gems gleaned from the Word New User newsgroup over the Christmas holidays to show Stevie's "expertise" in Word. Dec 17, 2008 7:47 pm Word 2007 .......... In older versions of Word you could highlght some text then go to Format - Change Case and change the case of the hoghloghted text. Is this still available in Word 2007? Where? Thanks! Steve Dec 22, 2008 8:22 pm I am designing a series of paystubs for a client. I start in landscape and draw a table then add columns and rows to setup labels and their corresponding value. This all works fine. After a landscape version is completed, I next need to design a portrait version. Rather than strating from scratch, I'd like to be able to cut and paste from the landscape version and design the portrait version. Steve Dec 24, 2008, 1:12 PM How do you protect the document for filling in forms? Steve One of my favourites: Dec 30, 2008 8:07 PM - a reply to stevie (The original poster asked how to sort a list and stevie offered to create the OP an Access database) Steve wrote: Yes, you are right but a database is the correct tool to use not a spreadsheet. Not at all. If it's just a simple list then a spreadsheet is perfectly adequate... John... Visio MVP
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#6
August 2nd, 2009, 08:10 PM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
Thank you very much Steve. I have all those tables with almost the same
structure you outlined. From all those tables I’m talking only about tblQuestions and tblGroups. According to requirements a one question can belong to a one, two, or I put as an extreme case even to three independent groups (they’re not subgroups). It can be as follows: tblQuestions: QsnID SurvID Grp1ID Grp2ID Grp3ID 1 10 2 1 1 2 10 3 3 2 3 10 3 4 3 ..... 25 11 2 1 3 tblGroups SurvID Grp1ID Grp1Name Grp2ID Grp2Name Grp3ID Grp3Name 10 1 Leadership 1 Encouragment 1 SomeName 10 2 SomeName 2 SomeName 2 SomeName .... 11 1 SomeName 1 SomeName 1 SomeName 11 2 SomeName 2 SomeName 2 SomeName .... "Steve" wrote: Your tables are not correct! Consider this ... TblSurvey SurveyID SurveyDate etc TblGroup GroupID GroupName GroupVis TblQuestionType QuestionTypeID QuestionType TblQuestion QuestionID SurveyID GroupID QuestionTypeID QuestionText TblAnswer AnswerID QuestionID Identifies who took the survey. Could be EmployeeID, CustomerID, etc. Answer I don't know what PageID, PageType and OrderByID are for so there not included. It is very apparent you are struggling with this database. I can help you! I provide help with Access applications for a small fee. Contact me if you would like my help with your database. Steve "Alex" wrote in message ... Hello everybody, I created a survey questions table with the following fields: SurvID QstnID QstnText QstnCtrlType AnswCtrlType QstnType Grp1ID Grp2ID Grp3ID PageID PageType OrderByID The Group fields imply that each question can belong to a max three independent groups. So, I've created another table for Groups with the following fields: SurvID QstnID Grp1ID Grp1Name Grp1Vis Grp2ID Grp2Name Grp2Vis Grp3ID Grp3Name Grp3Vis QstnID is identity incremental field so it's unique without having SurveyID to be primary key as well. But we need SurveyID for making tables join connections. The number of questions and the questions themselves are different per survey. The questions' grouping per survey can be different as well. So, the separate table with only groups without SurveyID won't work. My question is how to link those two tables. Will it work: Questions.SurveyID - Groups.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - Groups.Grp1ID Questions.Grp2ID - Groups.Grp2ID Questions.Grp3ID - Groups.Grp3ID Or it's needed to be three instances of the table Groups to be linked to the Questions table: Groups as A, Groups As B, and Groups As C: Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp1ID - A.Grp1ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp2ID - B.Grp2ID Questions.SurveyID - A.SurveyID Questions.Grp3ID - C.Grp3ID Or it should be something else? What would be the better practice here? Thanks
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#7
August 2nd, 2009, 08:28 PM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:49:01 -0700, Alex
wrote: Hello everybody, I created a survey questions table with the following fields: SurvID QstnID QstnText QstnCtrlType AnswCtrlType QstnType Grp1ID Grp2ID Grp3ID PageID PageType OrderByID The Group fields imply that each question can belong to a max three independent groups. If each Question can belong to zero, one or more groups, and each Group may apply to zero, one, or more Questions... *you have a many to many relationship*. In Access (or any relational database) the proper way to model this is with three tables: Questions SurvID QstnID etc Groups GrpID Group other information about the group as a whole GroupMembership SurvID QstnID joint links to Questions GrpID which group is this question in If a question is in three groups you would have three RECORDS in GroupMembership. So, Ive created another table for Groups with the following fields: SurvID QstnID Grp1ID Grp1Name Grp1Vis Grp2ID Grp2Name Grp2Vis Grp3ID Grp3Name Grp3Vis So if there are 52 questions in Grp1 you would store Grp1Name redundanly 52 times, and correct the change of spelling 52 times if you detect an error...!? OUCH! That's "spreadsheet thinking" and is not good design. -- John W. Vinson [MVP]
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#8
August 2nd, 2009, 08:58 PM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
Thanks, John.
As I said before the same question can belong to different grouping methodology. E.g. SurvID Qstns: Grp1 Grp2 Grp3 10 Question1 External Customers Engagement Leadership 10 Question2 Internal Customers Satisfaction Management ..... 11 Can be different The customer requirements are to have it as this. How would you suggest to approach it? Thanks "John W. Vinson" wrote: On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:49:01 -0700, Alex wrote: Hello everybody, I created a survey questions table with the following fields: SurvID QstnID QstnText QstnCtrlType AnswCtrlType QstnType Grp1ID Grp2ID Grp3ID PageID PageType OrderByID The Group fields imply that each question can belong to a max three independent groups. If each Question can belong to zero, one or more groups, and each Group may apply to zero, one, or more Questions... *you have a many to many relationship*. In Access (or any relational database) the proper way to model this is with three tables: Questions SurvID QstnID etc Groups GrpID Group other information about the group as a whole GroupMembership SurvID QstnID joint links to Questions GrpID which group is this question in If a question is in three groups you would have three RECORDS in GroupMembership. So, I’ve created another table for Groups with the following fields: SurvID QstnID Grp1ID Grp1Name Grp1Vis Grp2ID Grp2Name Grp2Vis Grp3ID Grp3Name Grp3Vis So if there are 52 questions in Grp1 you would store Grp1Name redundanly 52 times, and correct the change of spelling 52 times if you detect an error...!? OUCH! That's "spreadsheet thinking" and is not good design. -- John W. Vinson [MVP]
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#9
August 2nd, 2009, 09:58 PM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 12:58:01 -0700, Alex
wrote: Thanks, John. As I said before the same question can belong to different grouping methodology. E.g. SurvID Qstns: Grp1 Grp2 Grp3 10 Question1 External Customers Engagement Leadership 10 Question2 Internal Customers Satisfaction Management .... 11 Can be different The customer requirements are to have it as this. Don't confuse data PRESENTATION with data STORAGE. You still have a many to many relationship. Storing it incorrectly will not help you. How would you suggest to approach it? Just as I suggested in my prior post. You can use a multiselect listbox or a subform to display it and edit it, or (with a little bit of code) denormalize for display purposes. Or, if you are willing to pay the price (far more complex queries searching three fields instead of one, inability to sort by group, etc.) you can use your three field denormalized table structure. It's your call! -- John W. Vinson [MVP]
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#10
August 2nd, 2009, 10:47 PM
posted to microsoft.public.access.tablesdbdesign
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set up tables relationship
Thanks again, John.
You’re saying “Just as I suggested in my prior post.” I tried to find that suggestion. Could you please point me out there as I could see the only post about Stevie? Yes, I understand that presentation can be different from a db. The previous example was for demonstrating a logic behind. How about if we create a third table where we’ll have repeating questions with groups with having a primary key by those two fields? E.g., SurvID QsntID GrpID 10 1 1 10 1 2 .... 10 2 3 10 2 7 Then a tblGroups table could have the only SurID and GrpID, GrpName fields without QsntID. Please, advise "John W. Vinson" wrote: On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 12:58:01 -0700, Alex wrote: Thanks, John. As I said before the same question can belong to different grouping methodology. E.g. SurvID Qstns: Grp1 Grp2 Grp3 10 Question1 External Customers Engagement Leadership 10 Question2 Internal Customers Satisfaction Management .... 11 Can be different The customer requirements are to have it as this. Don't confuse data PRESENTATION with data STORAGE. You still have a many to many relationship. Storing it incorrectly will not help you. How would you suggest to approach it? Just as I suggested in my prior post. You can use a multiselect listbox or a subform to display it and edit it, or (with a little bit of code) denormalize for display purposes. Or, if you are willing to pay the price (far more complex queries searching three fields instead of one, inability to sort by group, etc.) you can use your three field denormalized table structure. It's your call! -- John W. Vinson [MVP]
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