Problem Updating New Messages from NTTP News Server OE

Robert--

If I understand you correctly then, there is some overlap in the syncronization menu entries. I seem to be updating just fine by going to ToolsSyncronize NewsgroupNew Messages Only. ( You could choose all messages or headers only here)

I also meant to ask you if you could clear up my confusion on the path I just referenced above from Tools, and what you accomplish when you right click a particular newsgroup and click PropertiesSyncronize TabSyncronize (New Headers , New Messages (Headers and Bodies) All Messages (Headers and Bodies) and from the same rigth click context menu that yields those tabs you can choose Syncronize Settings (All Messages, New Messages Only, Headers only in the slide out of the right click context). I wish the terms were kept consistent.

I appreciate your help in sorting these out.

Chad Harris
______________________________________


"Robert Aldwinckle" wrote in message ...
(Reply to E-mail)
I am trying to understand what Syncronize All means

Synchronize *all* accounts with whatever synchronization method
is specified for each newsgroup. Also does Send/Receive on all
Mail accounts. Keyboard shortcut: Ctrl-Shift-M (also available
by toolbar button)

You may be able to use it to simulate either Synchronize Account
or Synchronize Newsgroup (thereby avoiding the checking for Watched
threads problem) by temporarily changing the synchronization method
for all the other newsgroups to None.


How did you find that google link?????

Google Groups Advanced page. Allows date range specification.
E.g. June 30 2004 - June 30 2004. I also used it to give the
other criteria that I normally would have typed immediately:

insubject:embedded insubjectictures group:microsoft.*.outlook

The Advanced page generates that syntax for you. Using the date range
eliminates a few other threads having similar Subjects.



HTH

Robert
---

"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...
Robert--

If I understand you correctly then, there is some overlap in the
syncronization menu entries. I seem to be updating just fine by going to
ToolsSyncronize NewsgroupNew Messages Only. ( You could
choose all messages or headers only here)

Actually, I was trying to warn you about some unexpected effects
consisting of "missing" messages if you use the Watched Conversation
feature with that command or with Synchronize Account. Synchronize All
does not have the same problem. As a kind of theoretical workaround
I was suggesting that you could simulate the expected effects of the other
two commands using the Synchronize All command after appropriately
modifying the Synchronization settings of any newsgroups (and the "Include
this account when checking for new messages" checkboxes of any E-mail
accounts). If you don't use the Watched Conversation feature you can
ignore my warning and then use either of the three synchronization commands
as desired.


I also meant to ask you if you could clear up my confusion on the path
I just referenced above from Tools, and what you accomplish when you
right click a particular newsgroup and click PropertiesSyncronize
TabSyncronize (New Headers , New Messages (Headers and Bodies)
All Messages (Headers and Bodies) and from the same right click
context menu that yields those tabs you can choose Syncronize Settings
(All Messages, New Messages Only, Headers only in the slide out of the
right click context). I wish the terms were kept consistent.

Ha! Press Backspace (e.g. to go from a newsgroup message list back
to your subscription list for the "account" which contains that newsgroup)
and you can add to your confusion. EG There you can click on the
[Settings V] button or remove the checkmark in the box under the
Synchronization Settings column or do more of the same right-click stuff
you're describing. However, the advantage of this presentation is that
you can see your changes being registered in one place. E.g. it becomes
clearer there I think that your settings are just preferences that are applied
whenever you use a synchronization command. In the case of the
Synchronize Newsgroup command your settings become the defaults
it presents to you in its dialog which you can then override as you wish.

BTW thanks for pointing out the distinction being made (correctly) about
Headers only really being New Headers Only. The best way that I know
of to get *all* headers is to do a Synchronize Newsgroup for Headers only
on an *empty* newsgroup. If you have already entered the newsgroup and
seen that automatic Get Next... that I mentioned previously your Synchronize
Newsgroup for Headers Only won't seem to do much. In that case what you
could do is uncheck the Get Next... option and then press the Headers button
(or equivalently use Tools, Get Next... menu command.)


If your confusion is about how to use the synchronization methods that each
synchronization command supports here is what I think about them.

I prefer to get to All Messages as quickly as possible for my regular
newsgroups (e.g. after a Reset) but the overhead to do that from
a Reset is too much and typically unnecessary.

All Messages is essentially what it says *all* messages and their bodies.
The main advantage of it over New Messages Only is that if you know
that there aren't any undownloaded old headers you can consider it as
a way of filling in headers which don't have bodies. The most likely
reason for these to occur is that you enter a newsgroup while online
(thus causing that automatic Get Next... that I mentioned in a previous
post) but they can also occur if you press Refresh or if your download
is interrupted after the headers are generated but before all their bodies
have been filled in. If you are using New Messages Only those
headers will stay as headers only unless you take some action on them
such as marking them Watched or Download Later. In either case your
synchronize command will temporarily convert your New Messages Only
method into (in Synchronize Newsgroup's terms) both a Get Messages
marked for download and Get...New Messages Only. With All Messages
such marking is unnecessary.

When you are first loading up your cache you won't want to use All Messages
(unless you really want to download all headers *and* their bodies) before
being able to use the newsgroup. A good compromise is to do a Headers Only
(so you know you have all possible headers). Then mark some of them
separately for Download Later and mark the rest Ignore Conversation.
That combination will allow you right away to change your synchronization method
to All Messages without the extreme overhead that having that set initially would
have caused. I would also mark the Ignore Conversation ones Read so I can
be aware of any new additions there might be to old threads. If that happens
all you need to do to try to get them is toggle off the Ignore Conversation
and they will be downloaded the next time you synchronize.
(I'm saying "try to get them" because as I previously mentioned to you
on some servers OE's use of old sequence numbers instead of the
full Message-ID may be problematic.)

If you don't get *all* headers e.g. instead of using a synchronize command
on an empty newsgroup you just allow an automatic Get Next... or even do
your own manual application of the Get Next... (e.g. via the Headers button),
you also won't want to use All Messages right away because of all the headers
which you haven't downloaded yet which you don't have any control over.
If you think you don't want to download them ever use the Catch-Up command.
Then you can switch to All Messages because then you would have all the
old headers you are ever going to get and the situation is then equivalent to the
previous case--you can mark threads of headers only with Ignore Conversation
in order to prevent All Messages from downloading too many old bodies
but still let it perform its useful function of filling in bodies for any stray headers
you may acquire and not have to worry about resorting to manual marking of them.

Whew! I have never tried to write out my whole story about downloading
and synchronization before. I'm not sure I have completely covered every
little nuance that I'm aware of but I think it is a more complete picture than
I have ever given elsewhere. Hope this helps.


Robert
---


I appreciate your help in sorting these out.

Chad Harris

....

Robert--

When you're given the choices

All Messages
New Messages
Headers Only

and you choose Headers only in a right click of the group on the Syncronize menu, do you delay downloading of the body of the message from the server until you actaully click the header? Is their any delay of the body of the message downloaded from the server?

Thanks,

Chad Harris
______________



"Robert Aldwinckle" wrote in message ...
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...
Robert--

If I understand you correctly then, there is some overlap in the
syncronization menu entries. I seem to be updating just fine by going to
ToolsSyncronize NewsgroupNew Messages Only. ( You could
choose all messages or headers only here)

Actually, I was trying to warn you about some unexpected effects
consisting of "missing" messages if you use the Watched Conversation
feature with that command or with Synchronize Account. Synchronize All
does not have the same problem. As a kind of theoretical workaround
I was suggesting that you could simulate the expected effects of the other
two commands using the Synchronize All command after appropriately
modifying the Synchronization settings of any newsgroups (and the "Include
this account when checking for new messages" checkboxes of any E-mail
accounts). If you don't use the Watched Conversation feature you can
ignore my warning and then use either of the three synchronization commands
as desired.


I also meant to ask you if you could clear up my confusion on the path
I just referenced above from Tools, and what you accomplish when you
right click a particular newsgroup and click PropertiesSyncronize
TabSyncronize (New Headers , New Messages (Headers and Bodies)
All Messages (Headers and Bodies) and from the same right click
context menu that yields those tabs you can choose Syncronize Settings
(All Messages, New Messages Only, Headers only in the slide out of the
right click context). I wish the terms were kept consistent.

Ha! Press Backspace (e.g. to go from a newsgroup message list back
to your subscription list for the "account" which contains that newsgroup)
and you can add to your confusion. EG There you can click on the
[Settings V] button or remove the checkmark in the box under the
Synchronization Settings column or do more of the same right-click stuff
you're describing. However, the advantage of this presentation is that
you can see your changes being registered in one place. E.g. it becomes
clearer there I think that your settings are just preferences that are applied
whenever you use a synchronization command. In the case of the
Synchronize Newsgroup command your settings become the defaults
it presents to you in its dialog which you can then override as you wish.

BTW thanks for pointing out the distinction being made (correctly) about
Headers only really being New Headers Only. The best way that I know
of to get *all* headers is to do a Synchronize Newsgroup for Headers only
on an *empty* newsgroup. If you have already entered the newsgroup and
seen that automatic Get Next... that I mentioned previously your Synchronize
Newsgroup for Headers Only won't seem to do much. In that case what you
could do is uncheck the Get Next... option and then press the Headers button
(or equivalently use Tools, Get Next... menu command.)


If your confusion is about how to use the synchronization methods that each
synchronization command supports here is what I think about them.

I prefer to get to All Messages as quickly as possible for my regular
newsgroups (e.g. after a Reset) but the overhead to do that from
a Reset is too much and typically unnecessary.

All Messages is essentially what it says *all* messages and their bodies.
The main advantage of it over New Messages Only is that if you know
that there aren't any undownloaded old headers you can consider it as
a way of filling in headers which don't have bodies. The most likely
reason for these to occur is that you enter a newsgroup while online
(thus causing that automatic Get Next... that I mentioned in a previous
post) but they can also occur if you press Refresh or if your download
is interrupted after the headers are generated but before all their bodies
have been filled in. If you are using New Messages Only those
headers will stay as headers only unless you take some action on them
such as marking them Watched or Download Later. In either case your
synchronize command will temporarily convert your New Messages Only
method into (in Synchronize Newsgroup's terms) both a Get Messages
marked for download and Get...New Messages Only. With All Messages
such marking is unnecessary.

When you are first loading up your cache you won't want to use All Messages
(unless you really want to download all headers *and* their bodies) before
being able to use the newsgroup. A good compromise is to do a Headers Only
(so you know you have all possible headers). Then mark some of them
separately for Download Later and mark the rest Ignore Conversation.
That combination will allow you right away to change your synchronization method
to All Messages without the extreme overhead that having that set initially would
have caused. I would also mark the Ignore Conversation ones Read so I can
be aware of any new additions there might be to old threads. If that happens
all you need to do to try to get them is toggle off the Ignore Conversation
and they will be downloaded the next time you synchronize.
(I'm saying "try to get them" because as I previously mentioned to you
on some servers OE's use of old sequence numbers instead of the
full Message-ID may be problematic.)

If you don't get *all* headers e.g. instead of using a synchronize command
on an empty newsgroup you just allow an automatic Get Next... or even do
your own manual application of the Get Next... (e.g. via the Headers button),
you also won't want to use All Messages right away because of all the headers
which you haven't downloaded yet which you don't have any control over.
If you think you don't want to download them ever use the Catch-Up command.
Then you can switch to All Messages because then you would have all the
old headers you are ever going to get and the situation is then equivalent to the
previous case--you can mark threads of headers only with Ignore Conversation
in order to prevent All Messages from downloading too many old bodies
but still let it perform its useful function of filling in bodies for any stray headers
you may acquire and not have to worry about resorting to manual marking of them.

Whew! I have never tried to write out my whole story about downloading
and synchronization before. I'm not sure I have completely covered every
little nuance that I'm aware of but I think it is a more complete picture than
I have ever given elsewhere. Hope this helps.


Robert
---


I appreciate your help in sorting these out.

Chad Harris

...

"Chad Harris" wrote in message

....
QP
Robert--

When you're given the choices

All Messages
New Messages
Headers Only

and you choose Headers only in a right click of the group on the Syncronize menu, do you delay downloading of the body of the
message from the server until you actaully click the header?
/QP

Yes. Or until you mark them for download and wait for them to be
downloaded on the next synchronize command as I mentioned previously.

QP
Is their any delay of the body of the message downloaded from the server?
/QP

Bodies are always downloaded after headers, whether it is being done
via a synchronize command with All Messages or New Messages,
or being done by manual intervention.


HTH

Robert
---

1) It does help. It took me a while also to notice that in one group I was having trouble getting updated that I never had before, and that somehow for that particular group, ViewsShow All Messages had changed to something else. When I changed it back to Show All Messages, I was able to see all the updated messages. Only this setting got that done.

There sure are a confusing multiplicity of places to choose what you're seeing, and I don't think they all do what they imply they will.

2) Also, at times I will get a view shows crossed out messages--although I can't duplicate it now. What's the significance of seeing those, and is this done via control of a web master or someone administrating MSFT servers? As far as I know once you post, you can't delete a post, although there are times I would like to correct or add to one.

3) One thing you mentioned that confused me and if it happens really makes no sense, --I don't doubt you at all, and that is your comment about Watched Messages.

"The simplest way to lose messages in OE is to use the Watched Conversation
feature anywhere within a newsgroup and synchronize that newsgroup with
either the Synchronize Newsgroup or the Synchronize Account command.
Both cause messages from Watched threads to be given preference and
if any messages from Watched threads are found they change the meaning
of "New Messages". Hence any messages which were really "New Messages"
but which arrived before the last header downloaded from those being chosen
with the Watched thread preference may be ignored. Fortunately this "feechur"
is not used when the command is Synchronize All, so that is what I almost always
use unless I know that the newsgroup or account I am synchronizing does not
contain any watched threads."

Why should simply marking the messages with the glasses symbol and assigning a color to those you want to watch and or a flag via "Watch Message" or "Flag Conversation" have any impact on downloading messages--that's a pretty non-intuitive association isn't it?

4) Finally, every time I post now to a Beta group, when I click New Post or reply, instead of the Beta news server, msnews.microsoft.com the public server shows up. In order to get the post done, I have to copy the newsgroup I'm posting to, change the top pulldown to the beta group which is listed there, then this gives me a couple dialogue boxes that tell me that's going to wipe out the newsgroup entry. It does, and I have to paste the newsgroup back in. This strange phenom doesn't happen if you're posting to the public groups--only with the Beta group. There's really no place to go and alter this behavior that I know.

The subject stays in all the time--so I don't have to change or replace that.

Do you have any idea what's going on there? it's a minor annoyance, but shouldn't be happening.

5) I'm still trying to wade through and understand your detailed post before your last one, but I appreciate the time you have spent trying to cover these topics. I don't see them explained anywhere on the web MVP sites included, or in books, certainly not in Help, and certainly not in any MSKB.


Thanks,

Chad Harris

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________



"Robert Aldwinckle" wrote in message ...
"Chad Harris" wrote in message

...
QP
Robert--

When you're given the choices

All Messages
New Messages
Headers Only

and you choose Headers only in a right click of the group on the Syncronize menu, do you delay downloading of the body of the
message from the server until you actaully click the header?
/QP

Yes. Or until you mark them for download and wait for them to be
downloaded on the next synchronize command as I mentioned previously.

QP
Is their any delay of the body of the message downloaded from the server?
/QP

Bodies are always downloaded after headers, whether it is being done
via a synchronize command with All Messages or New Messages,
or being done by manual intervention.


HTH

Robert
---

"Chad Harris" wrote in message

....
2) Also, at times I will get a view shows crossed out messages--although
I can't duplicate it now. What's the significance of seeing those, and is this
done via control of a web master or someone administrating MSFT servers?

Yes. Typically the longer you try to go without downloading bodies to
match up with your headers the less likely you will be able to do it.

As I tried to explain it doesn't necessarily mean that the message
is gone, it may only be moved but because OE tries to download the
body based on the position of the message in the archive when it first
was informed of the headers, instead of downloading the bodies based
on the much more reliable Message-ID. Depending on the server
you are connected to this may be a severe problem. In that case your
options would be to download both headers and bodies at the same time
or switch to a different newsreader which didn't have that problem.


Why should simply marking the messages with the glasses symbol and
assigning a color to those you want to watch and or a flag via "Watch
Message" or "Flag Conversation" have any impact on downloading
messages--that's a pretty non-intuitive association isn't it?

Yes. But there is a perverse logic about it. I have labelled the extreme
case "Loose Catch-Up". Say I didn't want to download *any* new
messages at all but I wished to reserve the option of perhaps downloading
them sometime. All I have to do is send a mesage to a watched thread,
verify independently (e.g. via a second account or via telnet) that that
message is now available to be downloaded and then issue Synchronize
Group or Synchronize Account (but *not* Synchronize All).

What happens is that either of those commands creates a special task
called "Checking for Watched Messages" which uses the XHDR References
and ARTICLE requests to download any new watched messages for
watched threads. A subsequent task does its normal XOVER to find
any remaining *new* messages. The problem is that the Checking... task
having looked at the last message added has changed the status of all
older messages to be "not new". Therefore there is nothing left for the
normal newsgroup task to do. I can't remember if an ALL Messages
download is similarly affected. It would be easy enough to test
if you would care to and would be a good exercise if you were interested
in understanding the NNTP trace.


4) Finally, every time I post now to a Beta group, when I click New Post
or reply, instead of the Beta news server, msnews.microsoft.com the
public server shows up.

Are you posting to a newsgroup which is common to two accounts?
Starting from the wrong account? The only time that I have that problem
is when I start composing a reply in one account and then realize that
I really don't want to post in that account; I want to use that reply as the
basis of a new message in a newsgroup in another account.

If you are starting a New Post where are you starting it?
If you are in the right account I can't see why you would be having
that symptom. If you are in the wrong account then you would be in
the same situation that I described above. I think that there might
be an issue with common names in two accounts so that you might
have to start considering which account is your Default but I'm not
certain of the details. Perhaps that would be the case if you were
starting a reply from a message in a Find window? I'm not sure
if I ever do that and in any case don't have common subscription
names in the accounts I post to. Anyway, it's easy enough
to switch Defaults: in the Folders list right-click on your non-Default
account and then check Set as Default Account. See if that
makes any difference somehow.


Good luck

Robert
---

pc will not turn itself off please help

Why didn't you include the newsgroup for your OS? Asking in Outlook
Express won't get you anywhere.
--
Bruce Hagen
MS-MVP - (IE/OE)
~IB-CA~

"nichol4" wrote in message
...
pc will not turn itself off please help

"nichol4" wrote in message

pc will not turn itself off please help

Windows version?

--
Frank Saunders, MS-MVP, IE/OE
Please respond in Newsgroup only. Do not send email
http://www.fjsmjs.com
Protect your PC
http://www.microsoft.com./athome/sec...t/default.aspx
http://defendingyourmachine.blogspot.com/

considering you posted everywhere BUT in a haedware or OS channel, you're
looking for a quick fix......

unplug it