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OE Is Deleting My NG Headers



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 30th, 2009, 10:47 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
Neil[_8_]
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Posts: 104
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers


"NormanM" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:09:56 -0600, Neil wrote:

"Steve Cochran" wrote in message
...


It never made sense and its been a problem since OE4. It won't be
fixed,
so if you wish to keep NG messages, you have to copy them to local
folders. That is the only way. People complained about this for many
years and MS just ignored them.


And MS wonders why they're sinking faster than the titanic while Google
acquires their empire (apologies for the mixed metaphor; but maybe in
this
case a mixed metaphor is fitting, given the absolutely absurd state of
the
software).


Very mixed up. Google does not publish software. Microsoft is only losing
on
the web search front.


Really? What year are you living in? Google has Google Docs to compete with
Word, Google Spreadsheet to compete with Excel, Google Calendar to compete
with Outlook, and Gmail to compete with Outlook, and they are providing
functionality to use all of those OFFLINE. Furthermore, Google came out with
their own browser, Chrome, which not only competes with Internet Explorer,
but is designed from the ground up specifically for running web apps (i.e.,
once it matures it will probably be a full-fledged operating system,
replacing Windows, just as Windows once supplemented but then eventually
replaced DOS).

All of these are in their infancy, and their maturity is many years away.
But Microsoft sees the writing on the wall. It's not about Internet search;
it's about a paradigm shift away from desktop apps to web-based apps. And
Google is far ahead of Microsoft in the battle.

The year is 2009. Keep up with what's going on.


  #22  
Old January 30th, 2009, 10:51 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
Neil[_8_]
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Posts: 104
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers


"PA Bear [MS MVP]" wrote in message
...
Devil's Advocate: If posts were not removed from OE (in its current design
state) when they were removed from the server and a heavy newsgroup user
never deleted any posts manually, consider how bloated and ripe for
corruption the message store would become over time!


This is why OE has the option to remove messages which are more than X days
old when the message store is compacted. But it doesn't seem to respect
that, and just deletes messages.

Furthermore, a "heavy newsgroup user" would probably just download headers,
which take up almost no space, and only get messages for headers that are
read. That wouldn't result in a lot of bloat.

But as a newsgroup user, I'd like to be able to have messages that I've
already stored on my harddrive remain on my harddrive, rather than having
them deleted against my will by the software. If bloat is a problem, then
let ME manage it. Don't force me to have my messages deleted simply because
you're connecting to the server, for crying out loud.

You and a few others are trying to justify Microsoft's action, like as
though it makes sense. It doesn't make sense to delete messages without user
authorization. It's just a stupid thing that OE does.


  #23  
Old January 30th, 2009, 10:53 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
Neil[_8_]
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Posts: 104
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers

These resistant pogues couldn't get their noodles around that one

Keep OE = Outlook EXPRESS.

Don't Bloat It.


This "pogue" believes he's intelligent enough to be able to manage his own
software without being forced to lose messages every time they scroll off
the server. Face it: this is a glitch, a flaw. You're trying to justify it
with some nonsense about keeping OE lean and mean; but the bottom line is
that it doesn't make any sense to delete messages against the user's will.

Imagine if OE did that on the mail side. Why not keep that "lean and mean"
as well?

Obviously your argument is ridiculous.


  #24  
Old January 30th, 2009, 10:57 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
Neil[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 104
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers


"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

Devil's Advocate: If posts were not removed from OE (in its current
design
state) when they were removed from the server and a heavy newsgroup user
never deleted any posts manually, consider how bloated and ripe for
corruption the message store would become over time!


How true. There is still the 2GB maximum file size for the .dbx files
used by OE. That means you cannot store more than 2GB worth of headers
and bodies in a .dbx file for a newsgroup. Exceeding that threshold
results in a corrupted .dbx file. So with NNTP servers with extreme
retention intervals and with a user that downloads all headers and also
all their bodies then it becomes more likely the 2GB threshold gets
exceeded.


So you're saying that the software isn't intelligent enough to just say:
"Hey, you've reached the limit. Can't download anymore. Would you like me to
clear some messages for you"? Instead it has to automatically delete
messages, just to avoid the 2 GB limit??? Ridiculous!

For what it's worth, all of my newsgroup DBXs are less than 10 MB! Not even
anywhere close to 2 GB!!!!!

And, again, if it ever did come close, a simple message prompting to delete
old messages would be fine (similar to what Windows does when your hard
drive gets near capacity).



  #25  
Old January 30th, 2009, 11:03 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
PA Bear [MS MVP]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,690
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers

Neil wrote:
Devil's Advocate: If posts were not removed from OE (in its current
design
state) when they were removed from the server and a heavy newsgroup user
never deleted any posts manually, consider how bloated and ripe for
corruption the message store would become over time!


This is why OE has the option to remove messages which are more than X
days
old when the message store is compacted. But it doesn't seem to respect
that, and just deletes messages...


If enabled, that option will ONLY delete downloaded message bodies. It does
NOT remove the downloaded headers.
--
~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002
AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net
DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

  #26  
Old January 30th, 2009, 11:06 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
Neil[_8_]
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Posts: 104
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers


"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
Neil wrote:

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
Bruce Hagen wrote:

News servers only keep posts for a period of time. Each server is
different.
MSNews keeps them for 90 days. Some servers keep them longer, some only
for
a few days.

If you want to keep posts indefinitely, copy them to an OE local
folder.

Also, make sure that in View | Current View, you have Show All Messages
and
Group messages By Conversation checked and nothing else.

The reason regarding Bruce's reply is that OE remains in sync with the
NNTP server. If the NNTP server expires and drops a post then so, too,
will OE. You need to move items out of the newsgroups folder in OE if
you don't want them to get synchronized (i.e., deleted in OE after the
NNTP server deleted them).


Again, I have my synchronization settings set to "No synchronization."
And I
remember my headers used to stay indefinitely. Once a header was
downloaded,
it would just stay in the folder. If I hadn't gotten the body of a
message,
and it scrolled off the server, then, yeah, it was too late (and when I
tried to get that expired text, OE would show the header in strikethrough
text; but the header would still be there).

So what's the point of having a synchronization setting of "no
synchronization" if OE is going to synchronize anyway? Doesn't make
sense.
And, like I said, didn't used to be that way. I remember a point where OE
would keep downloaded headers indefinitely.

Also, what's the point of having a "Delete news messages X days after
being
downloaded" if OE is just going to delete them anyway, regardless of the
setting. Again, doesn't make sense.


The "synchronization" you mention only relates to reading posts while OE
is offline. It determines if OE is going to retrieve nothing new, just
headers for new posts, or the headers and bodies of new posts. You can
then put OE offline to read them (or read them while you are
disconnected from the network). That is NOT the synchronization that I
spoke of which is OE keeping in sync with what posts are currently
available on the server.

If OE gets out of sync, you will see articles listed in OE but when you
try to read them you get "message no longer available on server" error.
That is because the server expired the article and removed it.


Yes, I understand that. I've gotten that many times. No problem. I don't
expect to be able to get messages that are no longer available.

What I'm saying is: AFTER a message body is ALREADY downloaded, it shouldn't
be deleted from my hard drive without my permission.

There is
an overview headers database that gets updated at intervals, like maybe
just once per day, but the article expire during the day. That means
the overview database and the article database can get out of sync. You
end up with "bad article number" errors when your newsreader tries
retrieve an article that was found in the overview database (when you
retrieved just headers) but the article no longer exists in the article
database. When the overview database gets updated then it is in sync
with the article database. That's another type of synchronization
problem. When an article is removed from the server, and after the
overview database gets updated to get in sync with the articles, then OE
uses the overview headers to figure out when an article is no longer
available on the server, and then OE syncs itself. That's the sync that
I was talking about.


All I know is that I used to download headers, and headers would stay in the
newsgroup folder. I would download message bodies, and they would stay in
the folder as well. (Or, more precisely, in the DBX.) There was never a
problem with messages that were already downloaded. OE was able to just keep
them on the hard drive, and add to them as new messages became available.

Then there came a point where OE changed and started deleting old messages
and headers. But it didn't used to do that.

So whatever your reason is that OE has to delete old messages and headers, I
say: no it doesn't. It used to not do that, and there's no reason to do it.


The sync you were talking about has nothing to do with staying in sync
with the server. It has to do with reading articles while offline.
"Synchronization" covers many different types of synchronization. Maybe
"cache headers or articles or both for offline reading" would have been
a better description albeit much longer description for the
"Synchronization" option in OE. Many users had or still have to pay by
the minute of connect time on a dial-up connection. They don't want to
waste time wandering around dozens of newsgroups hunting down the
articles they want to read and then retrieving them and then disconnect
to reduce their cost (which is the minutes deducted from their monthly
quota). Instead then have OE retrieve all headers and bodies for all
posts in all the newsgroups they visit (or maybe use rules to find just
particular posts). It often takes less time to do that so less minutes
are deducted from the user's connect time quota.

Regardless of your "synchronization" settings in OE (which have to do
with retrieving the headers and bodies so they are available even when
offline), OE will synchronize what articles it keeps with those that are
still available on the server whenever you connect OE to the server.


And that's what I'm saying is wrong. And OE used to not do that. And it was
fine.

If something is downloaded to my hard drive, it should stay there.

So
despite you caching a local copy to read off- or online, it will
disappear from OE if it disappears from the server. That's why you need
to move the articles to a different "holding" folder that is not the
newsgroups folder that syncs with the server. You break the sync link
so the article remains in that holding folder.


Again, I shouldn't have to do that. And OE didn't previously require that.
It's a ridiculous thing.

Gonna start looking into other newsgroup readers.


  #27  
Old January 30th, 2009, 11:29 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
Doug W.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers

Neil: I don't have the problem you describe, perhaps you should
re-check ALL of your OE settings and start over from scratch.

---

"Neil" wrote in message
...

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

Devil's Advocate: If posts were not removed from OE (in its
current design
state) when they were removed from the server and a heavy
newsgroup user
never deleted any posts manually, consider how bloated and
ripe for
corruption the message store would become over time!


How true. There is still the 2GB maximum file size for the
.dbx files
used by OE. That means you cannot store more than 2GB worth
of headers
and bodies in a .dbx file for a newsgroup. Exceeding that
threshold
results in a corrupted .dbx file. So with NNTP servers with
extreme
retention intervals and with a user that downloads all
headers and also
all their bodies then it becomes more likely the 2GB
threshold gets
exceeded.


So you're saying that the software isn't intelligent enough to
just say: "Hey, you've reached the limit. Can't download
anymore. Would you like me to clear some messages for you"?
Instead it has to automatically delete messages, just to avoid
the 2 GB limit??? Ridiculous!

For what it's worth, all of my newsgroup DBXs are less than 10
MB! Not even anywhere close to 2 GB!!!!!

And, again, if it ever did come close, a simple message
prompting to delete old messages would be fine (similar to
what Windows does when your hard drive gets near capacity).




  #28  
Old January 31st, 2009, 12:03 AM posted to microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
D. Spencer Hines[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 271
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers

This pogue obviously doesn't understand the architecture of Outlook Express,
designed by Software Geniuses Of Their Day, within the hardware constraints
they faced -- which has already been explained here.

Matthew 7:6.

D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Neil" wrote in message
...

But as a newsgroup user, I'd like to be able to have messages that I've
already stored on my harddrive remain on my harddrive, rather than having
them deleted against my will by the software. If bloat is a problem, then
let ME manage it. Don't force me to have my messages deleted simply
because you're connecting to the server, for crying out loud.



  #29  
Old January 31st, 2009, 01:55 AM posted to microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
D. Spencer Hines[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 271
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers

"Neil" wrote in message
...

So Microsoft is right to FORCE me to keep Outlook Express Lean & Mean and
not give me a choice? They're right to force me to have to move every
message I want to save into new folders or have them be deleted against my
will? They're right to delete things from my hard drive even when I tell
them not to?...


Gonna start looking into other newsgroup readers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This rampant, peripatetic, poltroonish pogue should have done that long
ago...

Forte Agent is a much more powerful newsreader than Outlook Express has ever
pretended to be.

He should look at it posthaste, without letting the swinging saloon doors of
this newsgroup clip him in the tuchis on his way out.

But instead of doing that he prefers to lob hand grenades at Microsoft on
matters wherein they have NOT ERRED, rather on matters where they HAVE
erred..

Said pogue thereby exhibits traits of very poor judgment, righteous
conviction and unrelenting ZEAL -- the very worst possible traits, joined in
pernicious and flatulent combination.

He is too thick to understand that Outlook Express was designed to
particular requirements existing at the time and place in the space-time
continuum when it was conceived and designed by Software Geniuses Of Their
Day [SOGOTD].

"Neil" obviously doesn't have a noodle capable of understanding the
architecture of Outlook Express and its capabilities and limitations --
driven in large part by hardware constraints and cost-benefit analyses
extant at the time of its conception and development.

He clearly is a boy, in temperament, character and maturity, even if not in
age -- and is probably a pimply-face teenager -- high on too much Ritalin,
paint fumes and cleaning fluid.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of
in your philosophy." ---- William Shakespeare [1564-1616] The Tragedy of
Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, Act I, Scene V, Line 166-167

Matthew 7:6
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Deus Vult


  #30  
Old January 31st, 2009, 02:13 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
Gerry[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default OE Is Deleting My NG Headers

Neil wrote:

Yes, I understand that. I've gotten that many times. No problem. I
don't expect to be able to get messages that are no longer available.

What I'm saying is: AFTER a message body is ALREADY downloaded, it
shouldn't be deleted from my hard drive without my permission.


It has always been that way. It is not going to change!


All I know is that I used to download headers, and headers would stay
in the newsgroup folder.


Not if they had expired on the server!

I would download message bodies, and they
would stay in the folder as well. (Or, more precisely, in the DBX.)


Not if they had expired on the server!

There was never a problem with messages that were already downloaded.
OE was able to just keep them on the hard drive, and add to them as
new messages became available.


Not if they had expired on the server!


Then there came a point where OE changed and started deleting old
messages and headers. But it didn't used to do that.


If there ever was a change it was before OE4 i.e before 1999.


So whatever your reason is that OE has to delete old messages and
headers, I say: no it doesn't. It used to not do that, and there's no
reason to do it.

And that's what I'm saying is wrong. And OE used to not do that. And
it was fine.


Microsoft are not going to change the existing state of affairs.


If something is downloaded to my hard drive, it should stay there.


Again, I shouldn't have to do that. And OE didn't previously require
that. It's a ridiculous thing.


That's the way it is. Move or lose!


Gonna start looking into other newsgroup readers.


If you update from Windows XP you will have to do that anyway.

--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


 




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