Denormalizing for form only

"Tom Wickerath" AOS168b AT comcast DOT net wrote in message
...
Amy,

I certainly understood what you meant the first time. The two solutions
you
were offered were vertical entry-based, which is counter to what you
stated
that you wanted. I too have been frustrated at times by this limitation,
and
in at least one case, I've intentionally denormalized some to accomodate
this
limitation. In this case, the customer wanted a spreadsheet-like view of
the
data (simple enough with a crosstab result), however, the data also had to
be
editable.

Unfortunately, I find that when I denormalize to accommodate data entry, I
regret it on the data extraction/analysis side. Either way, the client has
to spend unnecessary money or I just put in free time.

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

Why limit yourself to Access input only? If users are more comfortable
with Excel-type input, let them use that. Then analyze the data in
Access.

The data needs to be in the database. Why is this concept so foreign?

The Excel worksheet can be linked in and used just as a native Access table.
The users should have no idea where the data is stored nor what format it's
in.
They should be able to just run their business. My users never see a query,
table, module or anything other than input Forms (which may be Word
documents,
Access forms or Excel worksheets) and Reports. It takes more work
on my part to make sure everything they need is included but it's worth it
to them.
They pay me well!

Well, certainly I can write an import routine that can take a spreadsheet
and split it out into the requisite records, but this thread is about
trying to get Access to allow input of data in the format that you're
actually supposed to use in Access. If you have to go outside Access to
work with data in a format that makes sense to users, then write a routine
to fix it, Access isn't really fit for the purpose it's advertised for.
And that's more money my client has to spend without a real understanding
of why, or I just have to eat.

That's my point. There is no reason to use Access (or any other tool)
for problems it wasn't meant to solve. Yes, Access IS limited in its input
functionality for your particular application. That's why you have to use
the proper tool for each job. If it's a combination of Excel, Access and
any
other program then that's what you do. Your client probably already has the
whole Office suite anyway. It wouldn't cost extra to combine solutions.


I'm really tired of solving this problem over and over!

and THAT is what the Office suite is meant to eliminate.

Tom Lake

"Tom Lake" wrote in message
...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

Why limit yourself to Access input only? If users are more comfortable
with Excel-type input, let them use that. Then analyze the data in
Access.

The data needs to be in the database. Why is this concept so foreign?

The Excel worksheet can be linked in and used just as a native Access
table.
The users should have no idea where the data is stored nor what format
it's in.
They should be able to just run their business. My users never see a
query,
table, module or anything other than input Forms (which may be Word
documents,
Access forms or Excel worksheets) and Reports. It takes more work
on my part to make sure everything they need is included but it's worth it
to them.
They pay me well!

That's great for what you need, but for what I need it _has_ to be in the
database. Please trust me to know my own requirements. I also am paid
well, though less so if I have to eat time because I can't convince my
client that he should pay for a deficiency in the tool I've chosen.

Well, certainly I can write an import routine that can take a spreadsheet
and split it out into the requisite records, but this thread is about
trying to get Access to allow input of data in the format that you're
actually supposed to use in Access. If you have to go outside Access to
work with data in a format that makes sense to users, then write a
routine to fix it, Access isn't really fit for the purpose it's
advertised for. And that's more money my client has to spend without a
real understanding of why, or I just have to eat.

That's my point. There is no reason to use Access (or any other tool)
for problems it wasn't meant to solve. Yes, Access IS limited in its
input
functionality for your particular application. That's why you have to use
the proper tool for each job. If it's a combination of Excel, Access and
any
other program then that's what you do. Your client probably already has
the
whole Office suite anyway. It wouldn't cost extra to combine solutions.

Yes, it would.

Amy

I rarely force my clients to learn Access. It is a power tool, not unlike a
table saw. It is not a "bookcase", like Word or Excel.

If I've done a reasonable job of creating a user interface that's
"discoverable" and well-documented (internally, not via a "user manual/code
book), the users don't even know/care that I built the application using MS
Access.

Regards

Jeff Boyce
Microsoft Office/Access MVP

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Boyce" wrote in message
...
Amy

Although the Excel-like Thing1, Thing2, Thing3 approach is familiar to
Excel users, as you already know, it isn't necessary (or desirable) to
use this in an Access database.

What I've found quite useful for such one-to-many relationship is a main
form/subform construction.

So your position is to force the client to adapt to how Access does
things, rather than finding a way to force Access to present information
in the way your client finds easiest to work with. That's interesting,
but it doesn't really answer my question. My preference is to try were
possible to do things in a way that my client prefers.

"Jeff Boyce" wrote in message
...
Amy

I rarely force my clients to learn Access. It is a power tool, not unlike
a table saw. It is not a "bookcase", like Word or Excel.

If I've done a reasonable job of creating a user interface that's
"discoverable" and well-documented (internally, not via a "user
manual/code book), the users don't even know/care that I built the
application using MS Access.

That's kind of the point of my question...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:

The situation is that of a
SAT score conversion table. If the subject matter is "writing"
all scores must be indexed against the essay score. If the
subject matter is "reading" or "math", the score is not indexed.
So for any one given score, there can either be one data point,
or seven. It's much easier to keep mental track of the scores
that index to a particular "raw" score if you can enter them all
in a row, across. At a minimum, it means you don't have to
enter the same raw score seven times. Each practice SAT exam can
have its own score conversion table for math, reading, and
writing.


Before I can proceed with the task, please explain what you mean
by indexed? do you mean scaled against the minimum and maximum?

I mean it is indexed. If the raw score is 1 and the writing score
is 0, then the SAT score will be something like 220 (I don't have
an exact table, this is just an estimate). If the raw score is 1
and the writing score is 1, then the SAT score will be more like
240.


What you mean is that it's a lookup table?
Please explain the process of creating the conversion table?

The process is of tedious data entry. Look at the source graphic,
enter the number where it goes.

The source graphic must have been created by a table, somewhere, or
calculated.






--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:

The situation is that of a
SAT score conversion table. If the subject matter is "writing"
all scores must be indexed against the essay score. If the
subject matter is "reading" or "math", the score is not indexed.
So for any one given score, there can either be one data point,
or seven. It's much easier to keep mental track of the scores
that index to a particular "raw" score if you can enter them all
in a row, across. At a minimum, it means you don't have to
enter the same raw score seven times. Each practice SAT exam can
have its own score conversion table for math, reading, and
writing.


Before I can proceed with the task, please explain what you mean
by indexed? do you mean scaled against the minimum and maximum?

I mean it is indexed. If the raw score is 1 and the writing score
is 0, then the SAT score will be something like 220 (I don't have
an exact table, this is just an estimate). If the raw score is 1
and the writing score is 1, then the SAT score will be more like
240.


What you mean is that it's a lookup table?

In essence, but with two look up axes, which is why doing things the way
Access normally supports things is a PIA. And even to get what Access
supports, you have to use code and left or right joins.

Please explain the process of creating the conversion table?

The process is of tedious data entry. Look at the source graphic,
enter the number where it goes.

The source graphic must have been created by a table, somewhere, or
calculated.

True, but since I don't have access to the original, hardly relevant.

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote
in :

The situation is that of a
SAT score conversion table. If the subject matter is
"writing" all scores must be indexed against the essay score.
If the subject matter is "reading" or "math", the score is not
indexed. So for any one given score, there can either be one
data point, or seven. It's much easier to keep mental track
of the scores that index to a particular "raw" score if you
can enter them all in a row, across. At a minimum, it means
you don't have to enter the same raw score seven times. Each
practice SAT exam can have its own score conversion table for
math, reading, and writing.


Before I can proceed with the task, please explain what you
mean by indexed? do you mean scaled against the minimum and
maximum?

I mean it is indexed. If the raw score is 1 and the writing
score is 0, then the SAT score will be something like 220 (I
don't have an exact table, this is just an estimate). If the
raw score is 1 and the writing score is 1, then the SAT score
will be more like 240.


What you mean is that it's a lookup table?

In essence, but with two look up axes, which is why doing things
the way Access normally supports things is a PIA. And even to get
what Access supports, you have to use code and left or right
joins.

Aw, come on... All you need is a table with two key columns and one
value column. Not left joins. and a simple where clause in a Dmin()
function.


Please explain the process of creating the conversion table?

The process is of tedious data entry. Look at the source
graphic, enter the number where it goes.

The source graphic must have been created by a table, somewhere,
or calculated.

True, but since I don't have access to the original, hardly
relevant.

If the result set is a linear line or a simple polynomial, it can be
calculated. This might require a little code, but not necessarily.




--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote
in :

The situation is that of a
SAT score conversion table. If the subject matter is
"writing" all scores must be indexed against the essay score.
If the subject matter is "reading" or "math", the score is not
indexed. So for any one given score, there can either be one
data point, or seven. It's much easier to keep mental track
of the scores that index to a particular "raw" score if you
can enter them all in a row, across. At a minimum, it means
you don't have to enter the same raw score seven times. Each
practice SAT exam can have its own score conversion table for
math, reading, and writing.


Before I can proceed with the task, please explain what you
mean by indexed? do you mean scaled against the minimum and
maximum?

I mean it is indexed. If the raw score is 1 and the writing
score is 0, then the SAT score will be something like 220 (I
don't have an exact table, this is just an estimate). If the
raw score is 1 and the writing score is 1, then the SAT score
will be more like 240.


What you mean is that it's a lookup table?

In essence, but with two look up axes, which is why doing things
the way Access normally supports things is a PIA. And even to get
what Access supports, you have to use code and left or right
joins.

Aw, come on... All you need is a table with two key columns and one
value column. Not left joins. and a simple where clause in a Dmin()
function.

I'm talking about _form_ structure, not table structure. If you look at my
table structure, it is as you've described.

Please tell me how this translates to a form structure that allows the user
to enter the double-indexed value without having to repeatedly re-enter at
least one of those values that also provides enough spaces to ensure that
all six values get entered when appropriate.

Thanks;

Amy

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
:


I'm talking about _form_ structure, not table structure. If you
look at my table structure, it is as you've described.

Please tell me how this translates to a form structure that allows
the user to enter the double-indexed value without having to
repeatedly re-enter at least one of those values that also
provides enough spaces to ensure that all six values get entered
when appropriate.

Thanks;

Amy

The table structure is wrong, therefore the form structure cannot be
right.


ScoreSet
===========
ScoreSetId-Autonumber, PK
SubjectName-reading, writing, math
ScoreSetDesc-will allow users to select this set later and associate
it with an exam

ScoreSetItems
============
ScoreID-Autonumber PK
ScoreSetID-FK to scoreset
WritingScore-score to index this on (will be 0 for subjects that
don't apply, 0-6 for writing)

NewTable
============
NewTableID-Autonumber PK
ScoreID-FK to scoresetItems
RawScore-the actual score on the multiple choice questions


The following should be a calculated value, not a table field.
SATScore-the scaled SAT score in the given subject

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **