Why can't I see posting when I set "Group Messages by Conversation"?

"Twayne" wrote in message
...
"WhatsUp31415" wrote in message

There is a thread that I can see (in pieces) when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is not set, but I cannot see it when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is set.

I assume I am doing something wrong. But what is it?

When messages are Grouped by Conversation, then ALL messages in that
conversation are show under only one message Subject. That will be the
earliest message still on the server.
Then, under that, if you click the + to the left, are all the unred
responses to the one showing on top. Since it's a group, all the posts in
the group are represented by only the one earliest one, with the others
rolled up under it.

But if messages are not grouped by conversation, then every message is
shown and there is no grouping of messages by the Subject Line to show
which ones are responses or later then the preceding one. You see every
message available to you all at the same time.

Grouped:

message 1 (shows in pane)
Click the + on the left and the following
message 2
message 3
message 4
and so on will roll down.
4 responds to 3, 3 to 2, 2 to 1, or whomever they decide they wish to
respond to.

Ungrouped:

Message 10
Message 4
Message 1
Message 8
Message 3
Message 6
Message 2
and so on. Here you can't really tell which messages are part of one
thread or stand on their own or what.

That help any?

Unfortunately, setting the flag on a message down inside a group, doesn't
flag earlier posts in that thred, nor anything earlier than the message
flagged by the user; only older message get the flag. I think it's dumb
too, since flagging every message would make the entire group easier to
find. I usually do that by using Edit; Find and looking for the subject.

HTH,

Twayne`


What messages are seen, depends on whether Hide unread messages is selected.
Lets assume that Show all messages is selected.
'earliest message still on the server' should be 'earliest message still on
the your computer'. Not all of the messages may have been downloaded or
some may have been deleted.
--
Ron Sommer

"Robert Aldwinckle" wrote:
But such a vague Subject certainly sounds like it
could have been in a response to some other post
[....]
You haven't said whether you use the Read option:
Automatically expand grouped messages

Aha! These two comments exposed the root cause of the problem. Thanks.

Yes, the "invisible" 7/27 thread has exactly the same subject as another
earlier thread (actually several), the first posting of which is dated 5/24,
at least in my cache.

When I set "Group Messages", the 7/27 thread is presented as a response to
the 5/24 thread, even though none of the messages in the 7/27 thread has a
Reference record pointing to the 5/24 thread.

I did not see it until I set "Automatically expanded grouped messages"
because, of course, the flag is associated with the 7/27 message.

I had assumed that OE6 would only use message IDs for threading. That is,
if there is no Reference record, the message starts a new thread. If there
is a Reference record, the message is presented as a response to the first
the specified message IDs that is found in the cache, if any.

That is the way Google Groups is threaded. And that is the way MS
Discussion Groups is threaded for the most part. (MSDG has an unrelated
problem with the 7/27 thread. See the "Aside" below.)

However, after some testing, it appears that OE6 threads according to the
following rules, in order, when "Group Messages":

1. If there is a Reference record, display it as the a response to the first
of the specified message IDs that is found in the cache. The Subject record
is ignored completely.

2. If there is no Reference record, but the Subject record exactly matches
another message, display it as a response to the matching message.

Note: I did not test whether #2 is applied if there is a Reference record,
but none of the message IDs is found in the cache. Also, I did not test
whether OE6 also compares dates when applying #2; for example, the matching
message is dated more recently than the message with no Reference record.
Finally, I did not test whether OE6 tests for matching subjects of responses
as well as initial postings, esp. in the case where the subject response is
completely different.


Post Message-IDs.
[....]
Capture some Message-IDs if you want help with their
analysis. A simple way to do that for several is to
select all the messages you want to consider and then
use Forward as attachment.

I find it easier to select the message and click on Properties Details
Message Source. Then it is easy to copy-and-paste interesting header
records into Notepad.

The initial 7/27 message has message ID
(from Jules). The two
responses (so far) have message IDs
(from
Pete_UK) and (from
FSt1).

The message from Jules has no Reference record. The messages from Pete_UK
and FSt1 have Reference records that specify only the message ID of the
message from Jules.

When "Group Messages" is set, all 3 messages in the 7/27 thread are
presented as a subthread to a 5/24 message with exactly the same Subject
record. Its message ID is
(from Kay). AAMOF, 3
other unrelated threads are displayed as subthreads of the 5/24 message.


Aside.... I noted above that MS Discussion Groups has a problem presenting
the thread for the 7/27 posting from Jules. In particular, the posting from
Pete_UK is presented in a thread of its own, with a bogus initial posting
that has an empty message body and author "unknown". I suspect the reason
for that is the fact that the message ID in the Reference record, created by
Google Groups, does not have angle brackets ("...") around it. That is
only a WAG. It is folly to deduce a rule from a single example; and I am
not interested enough to take the time to try to find other examples. But
it does reinforce the fact the MSDG relies only on Reference records for
threading. BTW, Google Groups properly displays the posting from Pete_UK as
a response to the message from Jules.


Anyway, my mystery is solved. Thanks again.


----- originall message -----

"Robert Aldwinckle" wrote in message
...

"WhatsUp31415" wrote in message
...
PS....

I wrote:
The "invisible" thread has the subject "Formula", author Jules, date
7/27/09 5:18 PM, with responses posted at 5:42 PM and 7:05 PM. (All
times
are PDT.)


Post Message-IDs. That would allow anybody to see the full message
regardless of what newsgroup you are seeing them in.

I see below that you finally did mention a newsgroup name after being
asked.
So, does Google Groups have these mystery messages?...

Unclear...

http://groups.google.com/groups/sear...les&safe= off

But such a vague Subject certainly sounds like it could have been in a
response
to some other post to be provided as an example for its discussion.



In case I was unclear, the entire thread is "invisible" when "Group
Messages" is set -- the two responses as well as the initial posting.


You haven't said whether you use the Read option:
Automatically expand grouped messages

If you don't use that option and don't understand how it could hide
messages with different Subjects than the ones that you see with
threads contracted, it could explain your symptom.



Likewise, the entire thread becomes visible when "Group Messages" is
unset.


As would checking that "expand" option but then you would have to realize
that if the messages that you were interpreting as being parts of a common
thread in fact were threaded under a different Subject that is where you
would find them, regardless of your Sort By setting.



I could try removing the NG from the account, then re-subscribing to see
if
the thread becomes visible when "Group Messages" is set. I could also
first
try subscribing to the NG to another account to see if the thread is
visible
there when "Group Messages" is set.


The only thing that that would possibly change is update your cache to be
more consistent with the server's archive. In particular you could lose
messages by doing that.



But since both actions might change state, I want to wait before trying
them
in case you or someone else wants me to look at the current state.


Capture some Message-IDs if you want help with their analysis.
A simple way to do that for several is to select all the messages you want
to consider and then use Forward as attachment. (E.g. press Menu, w)
Provided you use HTML for your E-mail and don't use Base64 for its
encoding that will give you the headers as well as the bodies for all
of the messages that you selected. You have to at least put that
in the Outbox to be able to see the encoded attachments.
So set Work Offline and E-mail it to yourself. Find it in the Outbox
Then you can use Properties, Details, Message Source... Ctrl-a, Ctrl-c
to capture the source of all your selected messages. Paste that into
an open Notepad window. (Alternatively use Forward as attachment again,
from the Find window and drag that attachment to an open Notepad window.)
Then you can extract the Message-ID's (and any other helpful headers
for additional context).

Note that the best clue you may get that way is a Message-ID for a common
original post in their References: headers. In that case build a news:
link for that,
open it and see what its Subject is. Alternatively, if Google Groups has
archived
that message you could use its Advanced search to find that particular
Message-ID.
Doing that could also provide the convenient possibility of finding the
rest of the
messages you are interested in, all under their common thread, regardless
of Subject
or how old it is; however, I think that occasionally Google Groups doesn't
bother
doing that and just groups messages by Subject text. YMMV.


HTH

Robert Aldwinckle
---




----- original messages -----

"WhatsUp31415" wrote in message
...
"Bruce Hagen" wrote:
Only one thread?

No reasonable way for me know. I am not about to make a list of all
threads visible when "Group Messages" is not set, then crossreference
them
to all threads visible when "Group Messages" is set (my normal mode).

(But if you can suggest a way that I could automate such a
crossreference,
I would be happy to try. I am curious, too, about how many threads I
might not be seeing when "Group Messages" is set.)

I can only know about "interesting" threads. I stumbled across this one
when someone in another thread complained that the OP had posted two
essentially identical inquiries in separate threads. I used Find to
locate the other thread, then I set the flag. But when I returned to
the
NG listing with "Group Messages" set, I did not see anything with the
flag
set. As an experiment, I unset "Group Messages", and voila!, there was
my
flagged posting. Of course, the intent of flagging the posting and
setting "Group Messages" was to find the responses easily.

Fortunately, in this case, they were not difficult to spot even with
"Group Messages" unset. But I am still concerned about the situation.


What newsgroup?

microsoft.public.excel.worksheet.functions.

The "invisible" thread has the subject "Formula", author Jules, date
7/27/09 5:18 PM, with responses posted at 5:42 PM and 7:05 PM. (All
times
are PDT.)

The "duplicate" thread has the subject "How to write a formulae" [sic],
author Jules, date 7/27/09 5:38 PM, with responses posted at 5:43 PM and
5:47 PM.

I have no problem seeing the "duplicate" thread with and without "Group
Messages" set.


----- original message -----

"Bruce Hagen" wrote in message
...
Only one thread? What newsgroup?
--

Bruce Hagen
MS-MVP [Mail]
Imperial Beach, CA


"WhatsUp31415" wrote in message
...
There is a thread that I can see (in pieces) when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is not set, but I cannot see it when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is set.

I assume I am doing something wrong. But what is it?

"Ron Sommer" wrote in message

"Twayne" wrote in message
...
"WhatsUp31415" wrote in message

There is a thread that I can see (in pieces) when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is not set, but I cannot see it when "Group Messages
by Conversation" is set.

I assume I am doing something wrong. But what is it?

When messages are Grouped by Conversation, then ALL messages in that
conversation are show under only one message Subject. That will be
the earliest message still on the server.
Then, under that, if you click the + to the left, are all the unred
responses to the one showing on top. Since it's a group, all the
posts in the group are represented by only the one earliest one,
with the others rolled up under it.

But if messages are not grouped by conversation, then every message
is shown and there is no grouping of messages by the Subject Line to
show which ones are responses or later then the preceding one. You
see every message available to you all at the same time.

Grouped:

message 1 (shows in pane)
Click the + on the left and the following
message 2
message 3
message 4
and so on will roll down.
4 responds to 3, 3 to 2, 2 to 1, or whomever they decide they wish to
respond to.

Ungrouped:

Message 10
Message 4
Message 1
Message 8
Message 3
Message 6
Message 2
and so on. Here you can't really tell which messages are part of
one thread or stand on their own or what.

That help any?

Unfortunately, setting the flag on a message down inside a group,
doesn't flag earlier posts in that thred, nor anything earlier than
the message flagged by the user; only older message get the flag. I
think it's dumb too, since flagging every message would make the
entire group easier to find. I usually do that by using Edit; Find
and looking for the subject. HTH,

Twayne`


What messages are seen, depends on whether Hide unread messages is
selected. Lets assume that Show all messages is selected.
'earliest message still on the server' should be 'earliest message
still on the your computer'. Not all of the messages may have been
downloaded or some may have been deleted.

True.

"WhatsUp31415" wrote in message
...
There is a thread that I can see (in pieces) when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is not set, but I cannot see it when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is set.

I assume I am doing something wrong. But what is it?

"WhatsUp31415" wrote in message
...
There is a thread that I can see (in pieces) when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is not set, but I cannot see it when "Group Messages by
Conversation" is set.

I assume I am doing something wrong. But what is it?