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Life without Section Breaks?



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 1st, 2010, 04:41 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
office user
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Life without Section Breaks?

Good Morning,

Working in '03. Trying to build a fresh template for a document that has
been re-invented so many times it looks like, well I don't know what it looks
like. Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive
across section breaks, so was considering trying to build the document just
using page breaks (control + enter) instead.

The problem: Text is formatted into two columns, graphics as one column
(entire page width). When I highlight text and format to two columns,
automatically plcaes a section break.

Entire document will likely only be 10-12 pages, but will serve as a
template for an ongoing monthly report (so obviously want to be able to
change the month in the header on page one and not have to change others in
different sections).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  #2  
Old June 1st, 2010, 04:52 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Suzanne S. Barnhill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31,786
Default Life without Section Breaks?

Section breaks are required if you change the number of columns, as columns
are a section property.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"Office User" wrote in message
news
Good Morning,

Working in '03. Trying to build a fresh template for a document that has
been re-invented so many times it looks like, well I don't know what it
looks
like. Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering
fluid/consecutive
across section breaks, so was considering trying to build the document
just
using page breaks (control + enter) instead.

The problem: Text is formatted into two columns, graphics as one column
(entire page width). When I highlight text and format to two columns,
automatically plcaes a section break.

Entire document will likely only be 10-12 pages, but will serve as a
template for an ongoing monthly report (so obviously want to be able to
change the month in the header on page one and not have to change others
in
different sections).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


  #3  
Old June 1st, 2010, 05:51 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
CyberTaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,362
Default Life without Section Breaks?

Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run
continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of
sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply
allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are
correctly specified.

Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article
, "Office User"
wrote:

Good Morning,

Working in '03. Trying to build a fresh template for a document that has
been re-invented so many times it looks like, well I don't know what it looks
like. Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive
across section breaks, so was considering trying to build the document just
using page breaks (control + enter) instead.

The problem: Text is formatted into two columns, graphics as one column
(entire page width). When I highlight text and format to two columns,
automatically plcaes a section break.

Entire document will likely only be 10-12 pages, but will serve as a
template for an ongoing monthly report (so obviously want to be able to
change the month in the header on page one and not have to change others in
different sections).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


  #4  
Old June 1st, 2010, 10:22 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default Life without Section Breaks?

CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer
behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents
unless you know quite a lot about them.
If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the
first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink
it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different
first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the
first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a
continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its
effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers,
duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are
often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been
there.

Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm

The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type,
and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them.

Pam

CyberTaz wrote:
Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run
continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of
sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply
allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are
correctly specified.

Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article
, "Office User"
wrote:

Good Morning,

[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


--
Message posted via http://www.officekb.com

  #5  
Old June 2nd, 2010, 10:50 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Stefan Blom[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,556
Default Life without Section Breaks?

But, by default, as you create new sections, headers (footers) will be linked to
their respective "neighbors" in the preceding sections.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
(Message posted via msnews.microsoft.com)



"Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote in message
news:a8e4abf464b4a@uwe...
CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer
behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents
unless you know quite a lot about them.
If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the
first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink
it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different
first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the
first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a
continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its
effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers,
duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are
often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been
there.

Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm

The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type,
and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them.

Pam

CyberTaz wrote:
Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run
continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of
sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply
allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are
correctly specified.

Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article
, "Office User"
wrote:

Good Morning,

[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


--
Message posted via http://www.officekb.com



  #6  
Old June 2nd, 2010, 12:18 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
CyberTaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,362
Default Life without Section Breaks?

What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'?

Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in
this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's
description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact,
the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what
the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping
the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The
subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual.

Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often
unnecessarily.

Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac


On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via
OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote:

CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer
behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents
unless you know quite a lot about them.
If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the
first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink
it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different
first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the
first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a
continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its
effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers,
duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are
often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been
there.

Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm

The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type,
and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them.

Pam

CyberTaz wrote:
Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run
continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of
sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply
allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are
correctly specified.

Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article
, "Office User"
wrote:

Good Morning,

[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


  #7  
Old June 2nd, 2010, 08:20 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default Life without Section Breaks?

I wrote "what you say is only true for simple documents". Not that what you
said was untrue. Office User said "Having trouble keeping the headers and
page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks" and explained that he
has double and single column sections. Okay, I inferred that some of the
sections are continuous. I often have to fix such documents. The clients
haven't a clue.

Pam


CyberTaz wrote:
What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'?

Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in
this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's
description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact,
the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what
the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping
the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The
subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual.

Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often
unnecessarily.

Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via
OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote:

CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer
behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents

[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


--
Message posted via http://www.officekb.com

  #8  
Old June 3rd, 2010, 12:01 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
CyberTaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,362
Default Life without Section Breaks?

I'm sorry, but as I understand the English language, if something is
categorized as only true under certain conditions it is implicitly false
under any other conditions. Perhaps we can debate what constitutes a
"complex" vs. "simple" document, but in the context of the thread it would
still be subjective as to where the document in question might fall.

The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks
-- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of
Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes
absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or
multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page.

I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't
the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how
the sections were mangled that caused the breakage.

Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 6/2/10 3:20 PM, in article a8f02e1f70c60@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via
OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote:

I wrote "what you say is only true for simple documents". Not that what you
said was untrue. Office User said "Having trouble keeping the headers and
page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks" and explained that he
has double and single column sections. Okay, I inferred that some of the
sections are continuous. I often have to fix such documents. The clients
haven't a clue.

Pam


CyberTaz wrote:
What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'?

Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in
this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's
description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact,
the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what
the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping
the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The
subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual.

Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often
unnecessarily.

Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via
OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote:

CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer
behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents

[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


  #9  
Old June 3rd, 2010, 03:09 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default Life without Section Breaks?

CyberTaz wrote:
The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks
-- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of
Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes
absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or
multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page.


I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document
header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22.
Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make
it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number
shown will be 23.

The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document
that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back.
The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as
appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous.
The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new
sections and to fix it before leaving the page.


Pam

--
Message posted via OfficeKB.com
http://www.officekb.com/Uwe/Forums.a...ement/201006/1

  #10  
Old June 3rd, 2010, 11:54 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
CyberTaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,362
Default Life without Section Breaks?




On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via
OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote:

CyberTaz wrote:
The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks
-- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of
Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes
absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or
multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page.


I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document
header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22.
Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make
it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number
shown will be 23.


You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the
very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job
for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if
it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying:

1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17),
2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers,
3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer &
apply your columnar layout as you go.

There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the
OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant.

If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page
break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences...
Nor can the original section breaks.


The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document
that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back.
The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as
appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous.
The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new
sections and to fix it before leaving the page.


.... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly,
though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly
as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it.

You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to
every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he

I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't
the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how
the sections were mangled that caused the breakage.



Pam


Regards |:)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 




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