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#71
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PC Datasheet feels persecuted
"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net... Your argument doesn't hold water! For four years I have been posting my offer for help and you have not seen any sign of your doomsday prediction that the newsgroups would collapse. It just shows that other users of these newsgroups have respect for the spirit of providing free support. You criticize me for making offers to help other Access users but consider the following statistics .... In the months of July through September, there were 67 posts to these newsgroups that were pure spam. ... This was three times as many posts I made offering fee-based help. Irelevant, proving that others ignored the rules does not justify your actions. You follow all these newsgroups and I did not see where once you responded to any of them about advertising or the Rules Of Conduct for the newsgroups. There are other means of dealing with spam and the spam posters never see or care about any rebuttal messages that are posted. What has actually happened is that the number of Access users who have come to me for help and are willing to pay me a fee... Irelevant, the number of your victims still does not justify your actions. 2. Making offers of fee-based help carries the obligation to also give free advice/support in the newsgroups. This takes significant time. I give tenfold free advice/support in the newsgroups. Nonsense, the only obligation is to line your pockets. You are only providing free help to justify the money you make by soliciting in newsgroups that are provided for users to obtain help for free. Do you actually send a cheque to Microsoft for providing these newsgroups as a means for you to make money? 3. Contract programmers bill at a high fee per hour. One recent user who came to me for fee-based help said several MVPs from the newsgroups contacted him and their fees were three to five times higher than mine. Irrelevant, the issue is about soliciting work. As to the rates, you get what you pay for. 4. Contract programmers bill at an hourly rate an are very reluctant to deviate from it. I do all my work for a fixed fee so that the customer knows from the beginning what his total cost will be. Irrelevant, we are still talking about soliciting in newsgroups that are provided so that users can get free help. The Rules Of Conduct state, "Please avoid personal attacks, slurs, and profanity in your interactions." Your crusade of dogging all my posts to the newsgroups have become akin to the conduct of Arno R. Your counterposts to my posts are personal attacks against me and have become filled with slurs against me. Your conduct is clearly in violation of the Rules Of Conduct. Pointing out your attempts at ambulance chasing are not personal attacks or slurs. For the umpteenth time, these newsgroups are provided by Microsoft so that users can provide and recieve free assistance with Microsoft products, not as a vehicle for individuals to make money. Most users respect this fact. Those users who add extra information to their signature line do so to add credence to their answers or give readers an idea of who they are dealing with. John... Visio MVP |
#72
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PC Datasheet feels persecuted
Spot on, John
WSF John Marshall, MVP wrote: "PC Datasheet" wrote in message ink.net... Your argument doesn't hold water! For four years I have been posting my offer for help and you have not seen any sign of your doomsday prediction that the newsgroups would collapse. It just shows that other users of these newsgroups have respect for the spirit of providing free support. You criticize me for making offers to help other Access users but consider the following statistics ... In the months of July through September, there were 67 posts to these newsgroups that were pure spam. ... This was three times as many posts I made offering fee-based help. Irelevant, proving that others ignored the rules does not justify your actions. You follow all these newsgroups and I did not see where once you responded to any of them about advertising or the Rules Of Conduct for the newsgroups. There are other means of dealing with spam and the spam posters never see or care about any rebuttal messages that are posted. What has actually happened is that the number of Access users who have come to me for help and are willing to pay me a fee... Irelevant, the number of your victims still does not justify your actions. 2. Making offers of fee-based help carries the obligation to also give free advice/support in the newsgroups. This takes significant time. I give tenfold free advice/support in the newsgroups. Nonsense, the only obligation is to line your pockets. You are only providing free help to justify the money you make by soliciting in newsgroups that are provided for users to obtain help for free. Do you actually send a cheque to Microsoft for providing these newsgroups as a means for you to make money? 3. Contract programmers bill at a high fee per hour. One recent user who came to me for fee-based help said several MVPs from the newsgroups contacted him and their fees were three to five times higher than mine. Irrelevant, the issue is about soliciting work. As to the rates, you get what you pay for. 4. Contract programmers bill at an hourly rate an are very reluctant to deviate from it. I do all my work for a fixed fee so that the customer knows from the beginning what his total cost will be. Irrelevant, we are still talking about soliciting in newsgroups that are provided so that users can get free help. The Rules Of Conduct state, "Please avoid personal attacks, slurs, and profanity in your interactions." Your crusade of dogging all my posts to the newsgroups have become akin to the conduct of Arno R. Your counterposts to my posts are personal attacks against me and have become filled with slurs against me. Your conduct is clearly in violation of the Rules Of Conduct. Pointing out your attempts at ambulance chasing are not personal attacks or slurs. For the umpteenth time, these newsgroups are provided by Microsoft so that users can provide and recieve free assistance with Microsoft products, not as a vehicle for individuals to make money. Most users respect this fact. Those users who add extra information to their signature line do so to add credence to their answers or give readers an idea of who they are dealing with. John... Visio MVP |
#73
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Multidimensional Forms/Tables
Graham,
I have to take exception to your use of the word "Plonk". I will have you know that I, and probably a great many of your fellow Ockers, have taken great pleasure from our imbibing of the good Dallie drop. A least offensive term, and to be politically correct, I reckon you should've used the term "Whacker". WSF NZL Graham R Seach wrote: Steve, ...what specific published guidelines are you referring to? The code of conduct, of which you are well aware. I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this I can't help that, but it does happen. ...In the time you spent writing this response to me... As I'm using a different machine right now, I don't have all the post histories, so I have no idea what her original problem was. I posted here because you are still advertising your wares on a free newsgroup. ...your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no validity Untrue, and an irrelevence. OK, I can see there's no reasoning with the likes of you. You know what you're doing is unethical, but you just don't care. You make money of the poor souls who come here seeking help, and that's all you care about. I call you unethical, and you offer no concrete argument to the contrary. Little wonder you've NEVER even been considered for an MVP award. plonk! Regards, Graham R Seach Microsoft Access MVP Sydney, Australia "PC Datasheet" wrote in message hlink.net... Graham, I take issue with what you say. 1. a) In the first sentence, what specific published guidelines are you referring to? b) Where in the guidelines does it say "Thou shall not drum up business"? 2. You say, "...we may offer to help them offline..." a) I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this. You could probably count on one hand how many times an offer like this was made in the newsgroups in the past eight months. Case in point, you are about the eighth MVP that has responded in this thread. Undoubtedly numerous other MVPs have read this thread. Do you see one MVP offering to help Sharan offline? This is the exact point I made to Duane in a previous response to him when I said that he could have helped numerous posters solve their problems in the time he has spent dogging me. You have demonstrated keen expertise with Access in the posts you have made to the newsgroups. In the time you spent writing this response to me, you could have written detailed instructions to Sharan on how to at least begin to solve his problem. Sharan still has his problem as far as anyone can tell. b) A goodly number of posters post through discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com. There's no way to email these posters offline. So if offers by MVPs to help offline rarely appear in the newsgroups and there's no way to email posters who post through discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com, your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no validity. Finally, When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a "service" - not offering "help". (c) advise the OP and offer our professional services. So, MVPs "offer" professional services and since I am not an MVP, I "solicit" a service? Steve "Graham R Seach" wrote in message ... Steve, The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and thereby, its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help. The MVPs try to solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free. If that fails, we may offer to help them offline, but the inference and intention is always that that offline help is also free, in the spirit of the newsgroups. Having said that, we'll sometimes find that the (now offline) problem requires more time and resources than can be reasonably expected for free, so we either (a) escalate it to Microsoft, (b) provide references to other resources (free or fee-based), or (c) advise the OP and offer our professional services. Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering a *fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other *free* resources still available, and without attempting to solve the issue offline for free. Your statement that you have completed 1000 fee-based requests for help in the past 4 years may be true (I don't know), but it is irrelevent, because of itself, that fact is not evidence that what you're doing is ethical. I suggest also that your use of the word "requests" is a tad generous, because it's you who is making the request - not the OP. You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to Duane. When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a "service" - not offering "help". That's it in a nutshell, and that's what we object to. We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your business as part of your signature line. No-one objects to you earning a living; we all have to do that, but when you start charging the instant the (previously free) problem needs to go offline - that amounts to using the newsgroups to generate business leads. I for one have never seen you offer to take an OP's problem offline for free (you may have - I've just never seen it). The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for free - finish helping for free - except of course when the problem ultimately proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after all other free resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for straight for the fee-based service. Regards, Graham R Seach Microsoft Access MVP Sydney, Australia "PC Datasheet" wrote in message rthlink.net... Duane, Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion rule your thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with newsgroups' core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go to the heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the concept. OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief; remedy (sic solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care what these words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users who come to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a solution or not. I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to their Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up a mere line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and have gotten a solution to their Access related problem. Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said at the beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this thread was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to find a contractor." And in your current response you have turned one hundred and eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do. Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not mind if a thread went on for "many days" and maybe 20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for charge" services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10 replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help? You're certainly not being clear. Further, your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct for this group, as posted at http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you advertise: "We ask that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that do not pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or chat." Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you are literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error in its meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the following: o MS Access MVP o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs." o "John Viescas, author "Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!) "Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out" "Running Microsoft Access 2000" "SQL Queries for Mere Mortals" o David Lloyd MCSD .NET http://LemingtonConsulting.com and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are advertised by a MVP who frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this advertising in the newsgroups on a daily basis. So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are saying does not make sense. Steve "Duane Hookom" wrote in message .. . I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1. How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My emotion took over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of context. I called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your "actions" deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your person as a whole. Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't advertising. I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use public newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to admit that: 1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups 2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not acceptable -- Duane Hookom MS Access MVP "PC Datasheet" wrote in message arthlink.net... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer Particularly note 2b!! 1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a drink. 2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an opinion. b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a requirement http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help 1. a) The act or an instance of helping. b) Aid or assistance. 2. Relief; remedy. You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core purpose really is.!! In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their problems. This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the past four years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't get it!! You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous response where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R for his tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is quickly fading! Steve "Duane Hookom" wrote in message ... 1. Your intelligence level is peeking out http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise 2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette. -- Duane Hookom MS Access MVP -- Microsoft Access MVP "PC Datasheet" wrote: 1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like outside help with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising! 2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan in this thread on 10/7 3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four years 4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it appears highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post or where it appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a solution to his post on his own. 5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support 6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a resource for Access users to find solutions to their problems If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of fee-based help" Steve |
#74
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Multidimensional Forms/Tables
I should have added - that's spelt with a "c"
WSF wrote: Graham, I have to take exception to your use of the word "Plonk". I will have you know that I, and probably a great many of your fellow Ockers, have taken great pleasure from our imbibing of the good Dallie drop. A least offensive term, and to be politically correct, I reckon you should've used the term "Whacker". WSF NZL Graham R Seach wrote: Steve, ...what specific published guidelines are you referring to? The code of conduct, of which you are well aware. I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this I can't help that, but it does happen. ...In the time you spent writing this response to me... As I'm using a different machine right now, I don't have all the post histories, so I have no idea what her original problem was. I posted here because you are still advertising your wares on a free newsgroup. ...your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no validity Untrue, and an irrelevence. OK, I can see there's no reasoning with the likes of you. You know what you're doing is unethical, but you just don't care. You make money of the poor souls who come here seeking help, and that's all you care about. I call you unethical, and you offer no concrete argument to the contrary. Little wonder you've NEVER even been considered for an MVP award. plonk! Regards, Graham R Seach Microsoft Access MVP Sydney, Australia "PC Datasheet" wrote in message hlink.net... Graham, I take issue with what you say. 1. a) In the first sentence, what specific published guidelines are you referring to? b) Where in the guidelines does it say "Thou shall not drum up business"? 2. You say, "...we may offer to help them offline..." a) I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this. You could probably count on one hand how many times an offer like this was made in the newsgroups in the past eight months. Case in point, you are about the eighth MVP that has responded in this thread. Undoubtedly numerous other MVPs have read this thread. Do you see one MVP offering to help Sharan offline? This is the exact point I made to Duane in a previous response to him when I said that he could have helped numerous posters solve their problems in the time he has spent dogging me. You have demonstrated keen expertise with Access in the posts you have made to the newsgroups. In the time you spent writing this response to me, you could have written detailed instructions to Sharan on how to at least begin to solve his problem. Sharan still has his problem as far as anyone can tell. b) A goodly number of posters post through discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com. There's no way to email these posters offline. So if offers by MVPs to help offline rarely appear in the newsgroups and there's no way to email posters who post through discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com, your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no validity. Finally, When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a "service" - not offering "help". (c) advise the OP and offer our professional services. So, MVPs "offer" professional services and since I am not an MVP, I "solicit" a service? Steve "Graham R Seach" wrote in message ... Steve, The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and thereby, its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help. The MVPs try to solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free. If that fails, we may offer to help them offline, but the inference and intention is always that that offline help is also free, in the spirit of the newsgroups. Having said that, we'll sometimes find that the (now offline) problem requires more time and resources than can be reasonably expected for free, so we either (a) escalate it to Microsoft, (b) provide references to other resources (free or fee-based), or (c) advise the OP and offer our professional services. Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering a *fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other *free* resources still available, and without attempting to solve the issue offline for free. Your statement that you have completed 1000 fee-based requests for help in the past 4 years may be true (I don't know), but it is irrelevent, because of itself, that fact is not evidence that what you're doing is ethical. I suggest also that your use of the word "requests" is a tad generous, because it's you who is making the request - not the OP. You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to Duane. When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a "service" - not offering "help". That's it in a nutshell, and that's what we object to. We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your business as part of your signature line. No-one objects to you earning a living; we all have to do that, but when you start charging the instant the (previously free) problem needs to go offline - that amounts to using the newsgroups to generate business leads. I for one have never seen you offer to take an OP's problem offline for free (you may have - I've just never seen it). The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for free - finish helping for free - except of course when the problem ultimately proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after all other free resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for straight for the fee-based service. Regards, Graham R Seach Microsoft Access MVP Sydney, Australia "PC Datasheet" wrote in message link.net... Duane, Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion rule your thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with newsgroups' core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go to the heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the concept. OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief; remedy (sic solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care what these words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users who come to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a solution or not. I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to their Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up a mere line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and have gotten a solution to their Access related problem. Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said at the beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this thread was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to find a contractor." And in your current response you have turned one hundred and eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do. Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not mind if a thread went on for "many days" and maybe 20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for charge" services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10 replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help? You're certainly not being clear. Further, your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct for this group, as posted at http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you advertise: "We ask that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that do not pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or chat." Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you are literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error in its meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the following: o MS Access MVP o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs." o "John Viescas, author "Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!) "Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out" "Running Microsoft Access 2000" "SQL Queries for Mere Mortals" o David Lloyd MCSD .NET http://LemingtonConsulting.com and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are advertised by a MVP who frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this advertising in the newsgroups on a daily basis. So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are saying does not make sense. Steve "Duane Hookom" wrote in message ... I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1. How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My emotion took over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of context. I called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your "actions" deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your person as a whole. Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't advertising. I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use public newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to admit that: 1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups 2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not acceptable -- Duane Hookom MS Access MVP "PC Datasheet" wrote in message ink.net... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer Particularly note 2b!! 1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a drink. 2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an opinion. b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a requirement http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help 1. a) The act or an instance of helping. b) Aid or assistance. 2. Relief; remedy. You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core purpose really is.!! In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their problems. This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the past four years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't get it!! You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous response where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R for his tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is quickly fading! Steve "Duane Hookom" wrote in message ... 1. Your intelligence level is peeking out http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise 2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette. -- Duane Hookom MS Access MVP -- Microsoft Access MVP "PC Datasheet" wrote: 1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like outside help with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising! 2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan in this thread on 10/7 3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four years 4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it appears highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post or where it appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a solution to his post on his own. 5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support 6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a resource for Access users to find solutions to their problems If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of fee-based help" Steve |
#75
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Mrs Datasheet's son feels persecuted
In this case, Graham is using plonk as the sound of an annoying newsgroup
user falling into Graham's killfile. The next time Graham downloads message from the newsgroup, the killfile will remove any messages from PCD so Graham will never see them. This will include any requests for help from PCD. Next time I see Graham, I'll offer him something slightly better to drink. John... Visio MVP "WSF" wrote in message ... Graham, I have to take exception to your use of the word "Plonk". I will have you know that I, and probably a great many of your fellow Ockers, have taken great pleasure from our imbibing of the good Dallie drop. A least offensive term, and to be politically correct, I reckon you should've used the term "Whacker". WSF NZL |
#76
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PC Datasheet feels persecuted
Where does THIS come from?
"John Marshall, MVP" wrote in message ... "PC Datasheet" wrote in message link.net... Marsh, You still haven't given me an answer. Steve and you have not apoligized to Ken Getz, F. Scott Barker's and Alison Balter for implying that including free code with their books was a particuarly slimy thing for them to do? John... Visio MVP |
#77
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Multidimensional Forms/Tables
Checkmate!
You lose. "Graham R Seach" wrote in message ... Steve, ...what specific published guidelines are you referring to? The code of conduct, of which you are well aware. I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this I can't help that, but it does happen. ...In the time you spent writing this response to me... As I'm using a different machine right now, I don't have all the post histories, so I have no idea what her original problem was. I posted here because you are still advertising your wares on a free newsgroup. ...your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no validity Untrue, and an irrelevence. OK, I can see there's no reasoning with the likes of you. You know what you're doing is unethical, but you just don't care. You make money of the poor souls who come here seeking help, and that's all you care about. I call you unethical, and you offer no concrete argument to the contrary. Little wonder you've NEVER even been considered for an MVP award. plonk! Regards, Graham R Seach Microsoft Access MVP Sydney, Australia "PC Datasheet" wrote in message hlink.net... Graham, I take issue with what you say. 1. a) In the first sentence, what specific published guidelines are you referring to? b) Where in the guidelines does it say "Thou shall not drum up business"? 2. You say, "...we may offer to help them offline..." a) I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this. You could probably count on one hand how many times an offer like this was made in the newsgroups in the past eight months. Case in point, you are about the eighth MVP that has responded in this thread. Undoubtedly numerous other MVPs have read this thread. Do you see one MVP offering to help Sharan offline? This is the exact point I made to Duane in a previous response to him when I said that he could have helped numerous posters solve their problems in the time he has spent dogging me. You have demonstrated keen expertise with Access in the posts you have made to the newsgroups. In the time you spent writing this response to me, you could have written detailed instructions to Sharan on how to at least begin to solve his problem. Sharan still has his problem as far as anyone can tell. b) A goodly number of posters post through discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com. There's no way to email these posters offline. So if offers by MVPs to help offline rarely appear in the newsgroups and there's no way to email posters who post through discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com, your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no validity. Finally, When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a "service" - not offering "help". (c) advise the OP and offer our professional services. So, MVPs "offer" professional services and since I am not an MVP, I "solicit" a service? Steve "Graham R Seach" wrote in message ... Steve, The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and thereby, its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help. The MVPs try to solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free. If that fails, we may offer to help them offline, but the inference and intention is always that that offline help is also free, in the spirit of the newsgroups. Having said that, we'll sometimes find that the (now offline) problem requires more time and resources than can be reasonably expected for free, so we either (a) escalate it to Microsoft, (b) provide references to other resources (free or fee-based), or (c) advise the OP and offer our professional services. Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering a *fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other *free* resources still available, and without attempting to solve the issue offline for free. Your statement that you have completed 1000 fee-based requests for help in the past 4 years may be true (I don't know), but it is irrelevent, because of itself, that fact is not evidence that what you're doing is ethical. I suggest also that your use of the word "requests" is a tad generous, because it's you who is making the request - not the OP. You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to Duane. When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a "service" - not offering "help". That's it in a nutshell, and that's what we object to. We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your business as part of your signature line. No-one objects to you earning a living; we all have to do that, but when you start charging the instant the (previously free) problem needs to go offline - that amounts to using the newsgroups to generate business leads. I for one have never seen you offer to take an OP's problem offline for free (you may have - I've just never seen it). The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for free - finish helping for free - except of course when the problem ultimately proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after all other free resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for straight for the fee-based service. Regards, Graham R Seach Microsoft Access MVP Sydney, Australia "PC Datasheet" wrote in message link.net... Duane, Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion rule your thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with newsgroups' core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go to the heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the concept. OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief; remedy (sic solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care what these words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users who come to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a solution or not. I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to their Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up a mere line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and have gotten a solution to their Access related problem. Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said at the beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this thread was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to find a contractor." And in your current response you have turned one hundred and eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do. Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not mind if a thread went on for "many days" and maybe 20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for charge" services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10 replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help? You're certainly not being clear. Further, your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct for this group, as posted at http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you advertise: "We ask that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that do not pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or chat." Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you are literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error in its meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the following: o MS Access MVP o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs." o "John Viescas, author "Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!) "Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out" "Running Microsoft Access 2000" "SQL Queries for Mere Mortals" o David Lloyd MCSD .NET http://LemingtonConsulting.com and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are advertised by a MVP who frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this advertising in the newsgroups on a daily basis. So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are saying does not make sense. Steve "Duane Hookom" wrote in message ... I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1. How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My emotion took over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of context. I called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your "actions" deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your person as a whole. Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't advertising. I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use public newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to admit that: 1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups 2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not acceptable -- Duane Hookom MS Access MVP "PC Datasheet" wrote in message ink.net... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer Particularly note 2b!! 1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a drink. 2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an opinion. b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a requirement http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help 1. a) The act or an instance of helping. b) Aid or assistance. 2. Relief; remedy. You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core purpose really is.!! In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their problems. This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the past four years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't get it!! You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous response where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R for his tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is quickly fading! Steve "Duane Hookom" wrote in message ... 1. Your intelligence level is peeking out http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise 2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette. -- Duane Hookom MS Access MVP -- Microsoft Access MVP "PC Datasheet" wrote: 1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like outside help with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising! 2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan in this thread on 10/7 3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four years 4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it appears highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post or where it appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a solution to his post on his own. 5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support 6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a resource for Access users to find solutions to their problems If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of fee-based help" Steve |
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PC Datasheet feels persecuted
"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net... Where does THIS come from? You'll find some of the same code in Ken Getz's Access Developer's Handbook, F. Scott Barker's Access Power Programming and Alison Balter's Using Microsoft Access. Are you saying that this was a particuarly slimy thing for them to do? PC Datasheet "Tim Marshall" wrote in message ... PC Datasheet wrote: Who is the ass? You fabricated a statement which you finally admitted was not true. Now what facts do you base this latest statement on: "including repackaging responses from cdma"? It's time for you to smarten up and be honest and participate honestly in the group Steve. You were repackaging code from many free sources and trying to sell it for $125 dollars which was a particularly slimey thing to do. Now, you got your apology. I suggest you start adhering to the newsgroup charter. What you're doing now is text book psych - you've latched onto something and are doing everything you can to deflect attention from your misbehaviour. I ask again, using your own words: are you "man enough" to apologize to the group for your behaviour? -- Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ |
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Mrs Datasheet's son feels persecuted
"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net... Checkmate! Wrong game. You lose. So having one less person to answer your questions is a victory? John... Visio MVP |
#80
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Mrs Datasheet's son feels persecuted
John Marshall, MVP wrote:
"PC Datasheet" wrote in message link.net... Checkmate! Wrong game. You lose. So having one less person to answer your questions is a victory? John... Visio MVP Why are you people even talking to this worm? Unleash Arno. |
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