OE Is Deleting My NG Headers

Thanks for the helpful note. I don;t think it was any of these. But thanks
for sharing this info!

Neil


"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Neil

Loss of newgroup messages. This can happen if something happens to cause
the folder (file) to corrupt. A power failure could cause corruption if
data was being written to the file and the process was interupted.
Newsgroup folders can get very large so that a system lacking resources in
terms of memory and CPU capacity can have difficulty handling the file. In
this situation the chances of interuption and corruption are greater.
Interupting the automatic compaction process is the most common cause of
file corruption. Normally users report loss of messages from the inbox or
sent items folders. These messages are irreplaceable, whereas messages in
newsgroup folders can easily be replaced. As a consequence loss of
newsgroup messages is not commonly reported.

The delete option when compacting was also a common cause of file
corruption because it could be working when Outlook Express was amongst
other things Online. Compacting was supposed to work in the background
allowing the user to continue to use Outlook Express for reading, writing
and posting messages. It was a disaster. The opportunities for
interupting the compaction process were significantly increased and file
corruption was common until the user of Outlook Express learnt how to
adopt practices to minimise the risk. In the absence of measures from
Microsoft to resolve the problem Steve Cochran, posting in this
conversation, wrote his first message recovery utility, DBXtract, to help
users recover messages from corrupted dbx files. The delete option was
specifically designed to work with Compacting messages in the Background.
You had to select the option to Compact Messages in the Background for the
delete option to work. When Microsoft eventually removed the option to
Compact Messages in the Background they overlooked the delete option and
it became a redundant relic.

Another way to lose newsgroup messages is to unintentionally delete
messages by clicking on the wrong button. In Tools, Options, Maintenance,
CleanUp now are four buttons. One is Compact but the other three buttons
all remove the contents of the selected folder.


--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Neil wrote:
It does make sense. Apart from differences only available by using
a synchronize command the main thing that you need to be aware of
is the Get 300 headers... option and the fact that its value is
used to do
an automatic Get Next 300... every time you enter a newsgroup when
you are in a Working Online state.

I don't have any problem getting headers. OE gets them for me
automatically when I enter a newsgroup. No problem. And I have it set
to 1,000, not 300. So the Next 1,000 command works fine too. No
problem there. But that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.


If you don't want that to happen,
either don't enter that newsgroup or enter it with Work Offline set.

I do want it to happen. And it's happening. No problem.


If you don't have the Get next 300... option checked the automatic
Get next done for you has the equivalent effect of a Synchronize
Newsgroup command done while the Synchronize settings are
Headers Only.

OK.


And, like I said, didn't used to be that way. I remember a point
where OE would keep downloaded headers indefinitely.


Was this with a different NNTP server? In any case servers change
how they act over time and they may also be set up to serve different
newsgroups differently.

I can't say if it was a different one, or when exactly it changed. I
remember, though, that headers would stay indefinitely, and I had at
least a years' worth of headers in one particular newsgroup. One day
I was playing aroudn with the synchronization settings, and then I
lost all my headers! I was aghast. So I changed it back to No
Synchronization. But ever since then, it kept deleting old headers,
though it never did it before I played around with the
synchronization settings.
But that was on a different PC anyway. This laptop is only about six
months old, and that was a few years ago that it happened. So
anything that happened on that PC wouldn't affect what happens on
this PC (and I didn't bring my message stores over from another PC or
anything). So, even though I can trace the point in time when it
changed to when I changed the synchronization settings (and then
changed back to No Synchronization), that wouldn't explain why it's
happening on this PC, which had a new install of OE.

Neil

Sorry. My fingers typed other than my intentions. Google does not publish
an
Operating System; which is the core business of Microsoft.

Microsoft's core businesses are Windows and Office. Losing Office would be a
very big deal to them. So important is Office that years ago they invested
in Apple Computer, their chief OS rival, to ensure that Apple didn't go
under, most likely because of all of the Apple Office users.

I am not really interested in web-based OSes. Those would require an
always
on Internet connection. In the event that my Internet connection dies (and
it happens about once a month, whether I like it, or not), my web-based OS
would be useless; my computer nothing more than an expensive doorstop.
I'll
stick to a disk-based OS, thank you.

You're completely mistaken here.

First, Chrome (or IE, or Firefox) is not "web-based." You can't have a
web-based browser that's used for browsing the web! The browser is itself
your window to the web. All browsers (including Chrome) are PC-based, and
are installed on the hard drive.

Second, I did note that Google is giving their web-based applications an
offline mode, so that you can use them when there's no Internet connection.
That takes care of our "doorstop" scenario.

Third, the distinction between online and offline is growing fainter every
day. Search tools routinely search your desktop or online resources or both.
Windows Explorer works with your computer's file system; but can also be
used for FTP access; etc. So the online world is more and more being seen as
an extension of the offline world, even though one might not always be
available to go online.

So your concerns about a "web-based OS" are misguided. If Chrome eventually
did evolve into an OS, it would be hard-drive based, would work with both
online and offline elements, and would seamlessly connect the two. And, just
as Windows provided support for DOS apps (and still does), so the OS would
provide support for legacy Windows apps.

Whether or not this will happen remains to be seen. I'm just saying that I
believe that that's the direction Google is planning on going in with their
new browser. But one thing's for su if it does happen, given Google's
tendency to completely outdo the competition when it develops things, it's
doubtful that you'll be wanting to stick with Windows 2015 (or whatever
version they have out then), any more than DOS users wanted to stay with DOS
when Windows 3.0 came out.

Neil

Thanks, that's helpful!

"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Neil

An extract from one of my posts from February 2004.

A factor in storing messages is the time news messages are held on the
news server. Practice varies from server to server. Microsoft were holding
for 90 days but there have been reports that this has been reduced for
some groups to 60 days. Generally other servers hold messages for lesser
periods, even as little as 24 hours. A design feature of Outlook Express
is that when a newsgroup is synchronised a comparison is made of messages
held on your computer with those held on the server. Messages not
previously downloaded are downloaded according to certain rules and any
messages which have expired on the server are removed from the user's
computer. The only way for the user to prevent removal is not to
synchronise the group or to move or copy the messages to a local mail
folder before they expire on the server.

Create Archive News Folders as sub-folders of Local Folder. Move or copy
news messages to these folders before they expire on the server. To create
folders place cursor on Local Folder and select File, Folder, New. If you
decide to use the Move command you need to select Edit, Find, Message
whilst Online ( preferably not connected ), use before "date" as search
criteria, select messages, right click to obtain the Move to Folder
command and point to the newly created Archive folder.

I use Edit, Select All to select messages but you can hold down the Ctrl
key, select any number of messages before using to Move to Folder command.

A minor refinement introduced in 2007. Place the cursor on
msnews.microsoft.com, select Edit, Find etc, click on the Browse button to
select first newsgroup and use the Move to Folder etc. As soon as the
messages start to move click on msnews.microsoft.com and for some reason
the process becomes quicker so that you can move through 20 or whatever
folders in double quick time.

This method may not suit many users. I download bodies not headers so
folders in terms of file size are much larger than for a user who only
downloads headers and bodies for those messages they choose to read. If
you have any headers without bodies the bodies are downloaded and all
moved to the mail folder. Take care to ensure you are Online when you
execute the Move to Folder command as if you are Offline the Copy to
Folder command is executed. You then have an extra operation, which is to
delete the "moved" messages from the newsgroup folder.

Manual compacting after archiving messages is essential.

In Outlook Express place the cursor on Local Folders and select File,
Work Offline followed by File, Folder, Compact All. Do not attempt to
interupt or stop the process until it has completed. When it has
completed close and reopen Outlook Express and see if all is
well. Run Disk CleanUp and Disk Defragmenter.

--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Neil wrote:
"Gerry" wrote in message
...
VanguardLH

I archive news posts. I do this every 14 days.

Would you mind telling me your process for doing this?

Thanks.

Tools | Options | Maintenance: all items unchecked except
Delete News Messages (set to 999 days)
-
Same - except for Delete News Messages - checked but I set mine
at 5 days as I don't want them any longer than that. If I
haven't dealt with them by that time, then I don't bother. I
used to have this set longer but didn't see the point in it.
Actually, I usually highlight and delete them after I have read
them or selectively delete and just leave the interesting ones
or ones I have replied to.

Thanks for the reply. One thing I'm confused about is this: you said that
you haven't experienced the behavior I'm talking about. But you delete your
messages every five days, if not sooner. My downloaded messages stay at
least 5 days. They just eventually get deleted, usually after a few weeks.
So if you're not keeping your messages for several weeks, then that's a
different situation. Guess I wasn't clear about how long my messages were
staying. Sorry.

One thing that you might do is uncheck and then re-check
settings. I found long ago that Windows occasionally SHOWED
something as being checked but in reality it wasn't. Re-doing
the checks or unchecking as the case may be, will refresh or
reinforce the settings. Can't hurt.
-

Yes, that's a good idea. Thanks!

Neil

Yep...

"Neil" is a pimply-faced kid -- in way over his depth.

He can only transmit and not receive.


You're too funny! When I read these things you write, I initially start
cracking up at how ridiculous they are. Then I'm filled with empathy and
pity at what a sad individual you must be to feel the need to continually
follow me around and write such things. I mean, seriously: this is very sad.

Please get a life.

Neil

You can get situations where headers appear and when you go to get the
body it is no longer there. Numbers involved are few. I have seen this
attributed to messages being cancelled by the sender. I have not seen
this phenomenon remove messages with bodies. The cancelled header
remains until the newsgroup is next synchronised.

Another problem that can arise is not to receive newsgroup messages that
have been posted. This is most noticeable if one of the missing messages
is one of your own. This arises where two or more servers are supposed
to be synchronised but something goes awry and they are not
synchronised. . You get messages from one server and then get messages
later from one of the others and find you have missing messages. This
situation can be confirmed by checking that the numbering of messages is
an unbroken sequence. It has not happened so often recently as in the
past. The solution is to reset the newsgroup and start again.

The situation when you lost newsgroup messages. Was it before or since
the introduction of OE5.00?

--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Neil wrote:
Thanks for the helpful note. I don;t think it was any of these. But
thanks for sharing this info!

Neil


"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Neil

Loss of newgroup messages. This can happen if something happens to
cause the folder (file) to corrupt. A power failure could cause
corruption if data was being written to the file and the process was
interupted. Newsgroup folders can get very large so that a system
lacking resources in terms of memory and CPU capacity can have
difficulty handling the file. In this situation the chances of
interuption and corruption are greater. Interupting the automatic
compaction process is the most common cause of file corruption.
Normally users report loss of messages from the inbox or sent items
folders. These messages are irreplaceable, whereas messages in
newsgroup folders can easily be replaced. As a consequence loss of
newsgroup messages is not commonly reported. The delete option when
compacting was also a common cause of file
corruption because it could be working when Outlook Express was
amongst other things Online. Compacting was supposed to work in the
background allowing the user to continue to use Outlook Express for
reading, writing and posting messages. It was a disaster. The
opportunities for interupting the compaction process were
significantly increased and file corruption was common until the
user of Outlook Express learnt how to adopt practices to minimise
the risk. In the absence of measures from Microsoft to resolve the
problem Steve Cochran, posting in this conversation, wrote his first
message recovery utility, DBXtract, to help users recover messages
from corrupted dbx files. The delete option was specifically
designed to work with Compacting messages in the Background. You had
to select the option to Compact Messages in the Background for the
delete option to work. When Microsoft eventually removed the option
to Compact Messages in the Background they overlooked the delete
option and it became a redundant relic. Another way to lose newsgroup
messages is to unintentionally delete
messages by clicking on the wrong button. In Tools, Options,
Maintenance, CleanUp now are four buttons. One is Compact but the
other three buttons all remove the contents of the selected folder.


--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Neil wrote:
It does make sense. Apart from differences only available by
using a synchronize command the main thing that you need to be
aware of is the Get 300 headers... option and the fact that its
value is
used to do
an automatic Get Next 300... every time you enter a newsgroup when
you are in a Working Online state.

I don't have any problem getting headers. OE gets them for me
automatically when I enter a newsgroup. No problem. And I have it
set to 1,000, not 300. So the Next 1,000 command works fine too. No
problem there. But that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.


If you don't want that to happen,
either don't enter that newsgroup or enter it with Work Offline
set.

I do want it to happen. And it's happening. No problem.


If you don't have the Get next 300... option checked the automatic
Get next done for you has the equivalent effect of a Synchronize
Newsgroup command done while the Synchronize settings are
Headers Only.

OK.


And, like I said, didn't used to be that way. I remember a point
where OE would keep downloaded headers indefinitely.


Was this with a different NNTP server? In any case servers change
how they act over time and they may also be set up to serve
different newsgroups differently.

I can't say if it was a different one, or when exactly it changed. I
remember, though, that headers would stay indefinitely, and I had at
least a years' worth of headers in one particular newsgroup. One day
I was playing aroudn with the synchronization settings, and then I
lost all my headers! I was aghast. So I changed it back to No
Synchronization. But ever since then, it kept deleting old headers,
though it never did it before I played around with the
synchronization settings.
But that was on a different PC anyway. This laptop is only about six
months old, and that was a few years ago that it happened. So
anything that happened on that PC wouldn't affect what happens on
this PC (and I didn't bring my message stores over from another PC
or anything). So, even though I can trace the point in time when it
changed to when I changed the synchronization settings (and then
changed back to No Synchronization), that wouldn't explain why it's
happening on this PC, which had a new install of OE.

Neil

How can I keep OE from periodically deleting my downloaded headers?

I think it has something to do with the news server you are using.

If I look at microsoft.public.works.win news group via microsoft news server
there is only four hundred eighteen (418) messages, where as, looking at the
same news group via my ISP (dragonbbs.com) news server there are twenty
seven thousand six hundred forty one (27641) messages available to select.

On dragonbbs server the messages date from today back as far as June 2003.

Ken


"Neil" wrote in message
...
| I'm using OE6 as my newsgroup reader. I keep losing my already-downloaded
| headings from newsgroups. Very frustrating. I want to keep them.
|
| Under Options, Maintenance, I have every box UNCHECKED, and all my
| subscribed newsgroups are set to Don't Synchronize. What am I doing wrong?
| How can I keep OE from periodically deleting my downloaded headers?
|
| Thanks!
|
|

Ron

"I see that you are not using a version of OE that has automatic
compaction. Earlier versions did have automatic compaction"

The generally accepted understanding of automatic compaction is that the
user is prompted to compact after closing Outlook Express 100 times. My
version of Outlook Express does this if I allow the count to reach 100.
It is rare for me to allow this to happen as I manually compact before
the count reachs 100. Manual compaction of all folders resets the count
to zero. Manual compaction of some folders does not reset the count.
Please explain the basis of your assertion that I am not using a version
that has automatic compaction?

Are you confusing automatic compaction with compacting messages in the
background? The former replaced the latter several years ago! They are
not the same. Automatic compaction incorporates the placement of a
backup copy in the recycle bin before each dbx files is compacted. This
feature was not present within compacting messages in the background!
Similarly the optional delete function, which could be used with
compacting messages in the background, is no longer available for use
with automatic compaction. The user has the option with automatic
compaction to defer the process. Whilst deferral can be on every closure
it is only a deferral as the invitation to compact will occur on every
closure until the invitation is accepted. There was no invitation to
compact feature with compacting messages in the background. You either
configured Outlook Express to use compacting messages in the background
or you chose not to use the feature.

"The compaction message will not appear until the 101st close of OE." I
was disagreeing with this statement! You now seem to be qualifying the
statement without admitting that this is what you are doing!

--



Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ron Sommer wrote:
I see that you are not using a version of OE that has automatic
compaction. Earlier versions did have automatic compaction and the
message store could become corrupted when the computer was shutdown
when OE was compacting. The compaction message was added so that the
compaction would not occur unless the user clicks OK.

I do not see anywhere in my post that says that OE is the only
program that increases the Compact Check Count. I just commented on
the way that OE used the Compact Check Count.

Yes, some people have received the Compact message without even using
OE or opening OE 100 times. This still causes the compaction
message that must be clicked for the compaction to occur and does not
cause an automatic compaction.

"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Ron

You're splitting hairs and wrong in the cases that Bruce has picked
up on. --



Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ron Sommer wrote:
When OE opens, it checks the count. If the count is 100, the
compaction message will appear when you close OE.
There is no automatic compaction, because the user has to ok the
compaction. The count changes on the opening of OE.
The compaction message will not appear until the 101st close of OE.

"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Neil

On closing Outlook Express 100 times. On some systems something
changes the counter in the Registry when it is not intended so
automatic compacting can be triggered quite a bit earlier. The
counter is meant to increment by one on closure but something else
cause the counter to increment at other times. Bruce Hagen writes
about this regularly. It doesn't happen here.

--



Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Neil wrote:
"Gerry" wrote in message
...
Robert

Also, what's the point of having a "Delete news messages X days
after being downloaded" if OE is just going to delete them
anyway, regardless of the setting. Again, doesn't make sense.


Makes perfect sense if someone only wants to keep a weeks worth
of posts in his cache instead of a much larger number that the
server might support.

Your comment is correct . It was logical. It was also part of one
of the most disastrous and problematic features of Outlook
Express. Compacting. Checking this feature was blamed for
countless losses of messages. Automatic compacting was abandoned
by users in favour of manual compacting Offline. The changes
made to automatic compacting not so long ago improved the
situation but did not totally resolve the problem. Manual
compacting before automatic compacting is triggered remains the
safest option. The option to "Delete news messages X days after
being downloaded" should have been removed when the other
changes were made.


When does automatic compacting take place?

Please don't feed the troll, Gerry...especially /that/ troll.

Gerry wrote:
I do not know. Leading lights who tried to persuade the Team to go in
the right direction were Tom Koch and Steve Cochran amongst others.

Tom Koch
http://www.insideoe.com/resources/communities.htm

Steve Cochran
http://www.oehelp.com/Default.aspx


D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Who were the people on the Outlook Express Development Team?

As stated many times in this newsgroup, the OE development team has
been disbanded, so their will be no new adjustments/fixes/upgrades
to this application, except for the occasional security update.

"Neil" wrote in message
...

And I understand what you're saying about my previous confusion about the
synchronization settings. No problem there.

His confusion continues. It's certainly not over.

OK, I think I misunderstood your point. I think I read your post too
quickly.

Yep...

There he goes again.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor