Microsoft Responds to the Evolution of Online Communities

What Biff said was, here's another link to the forums. I didn't sense
any negative tone to his post. I don't know why he reacted so strongly,
but I don't know the history of your interactions.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier
Peltier Technical Services, Inc.
http://peltiertech.com/


On 5/5/2010 7:15 PM, Joe User wrote:
"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!


Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

You wrote: "I have no idea if that link mentions the location".

You wrote that in response to my comment which quotes exactly what that
link mentions. So how can you have "no idea"?

Ergo, your comment seems to dismiss or question the correction of my
statement.

I did suspect that you meant to write: "I have not looked at the link
myself". But who am I to put words into your mouth?

And even so, there is no reason for you not to take my word for it,
since I provided a direct quote.

(If I had not directly quoted from the link, it would have been
reasonable for you not to take my word for it.)


All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and
here's a link that I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

And if you had expressed yourself exactly that way, I would have had no
issue with it.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.

What? Who's casting aspersions?

Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and here's a link
that I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

You seem to fly off the handle quite easily and often for reasons that
I don't understand.

So, to eliminate any further misunderstanding of any comments I may
make I will no longer interact with you.

I will never again reply to any of your posts and I will not
acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.

Good grief!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.


So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of
copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link
mentions. I wrote:

In the Q&A the
"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"



The new Excel forums are located at:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently.

But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in
appearance. I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different
ways to go to the same place. But that does not make you right and me
wrong.

It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different
ways to access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways
to access (some of) the "Discussion Groups":
www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always
used, and http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...s/default.mspx,
which Jerry was using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has
a more complete list of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site
that Jerry used.

Caveat emptor.


The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups
is a web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate.

I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a
reliable interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is
perfect.) Also, Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces
that they provide. Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any
way to report problems to Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight.
I just looked for the obvious "contact us" link on one web page.)

I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that
moderator process might work. This is based on two decades of
experience with moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some
insight. Apparently he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of
the new Excel forums.

Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an
alternative if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum.
And I will no longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those
problems, like deleted postings. You have personally benefitted from
that just recently.

Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely
trying to set expectations.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's
still a web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface
that they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least
reliable and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I
am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft
Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the
forums will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to
report problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or
useless (just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this
large. Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone.
Well, perhaps Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively
closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich
conversations in the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision
is in response to worldwide market trends and evolving customer
needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active
contributors to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy
community environment with less spam and make answers easier to
find by customers and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a
better user and off-topic management platform that will improve
customer satisfaction by facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important
to the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling
out tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community
discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime,
please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx
concerning this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be
made available in additional languages in the next few days.

"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message news:%
"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!

I didn't think it was overreaction.

You seem to have some worthwhile contributions to make yet sometimes you end
up antagonizing people with no apparent reason. I once went out of my way to
help you and spent quite a lot of time in so doing. Maybe in the end it
wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude reply I have ever had
in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you have!

Regards,
Peter T

Hi Joe
I didn't sense any negative tone to Biff's post. He posted the same message at
the same time on the other groups, I don't think it had anything to do with your
message, I think you reacted very strongly for nothing,
It's a shame.
That's my opinion.
John


"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!


Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

You wrote: "I have no idea if that link mentions the location".

You wrote that in response to my comment which quotes exactly what that link
mentions. So how can you have "no idea"?

Ergo, your comment seems to dismiss or question the correction of my
statement.

I did suspect that you meant to write: "I have not looked at the link
myself". But who am I to put words into your mouth?

And even so, there is no reason for you not to take my word for it, since I
provided a direct quote.

(If I had not directly quoted from the link, it would have been reasonable for
you not to take my word for it.)


All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and
here's a link that I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

And if you had expressed yourself exactly that way, I would have had no issue
with it.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.

What? Who's casting aspersions?

Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and here's a link that I'm
aware of to the new Excel forums.

You seem to fly off the handle quite easily and often for reasons that I
don't understand.

So, to eliminate any further misunderstanding of any comments I may make I
will no longer interact with you.

I will never again reply to any of your posts and I will not acknowledge any
of your replies to my posts.

Good grief!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.


So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of
copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link
mentions. I wrote:

In the Q&A the
"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"



The new Excel forums are located at:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently.

But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in appearance.
I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different ways to go to the
same place. But that does not make you right and me wrong.

It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different ways to
access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways to access
(some of) the "Discussion Groups":
www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always used,
and http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...s/default.mspx, which Jerry was
using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has a more complete list
of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site that Jerry used.

Caveat emptor.


The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups is a
web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate.

I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a reliable
interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is perfect.) Also,
Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces that they provide.
Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any way to report problems to
Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight. I just looked for the obvious
"contact us" link on one web page.)

I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that moderator
process might work. This is based on two decades of experience with
moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some insight. Apparently
he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of the new Excel forums.

Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an alternative
if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum. And I will no
longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those problems, like deleted
postings. You have personally benefitted from that just recently.

Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely trying
to set expectations.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools
and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

In article , "T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is good
with nothing (well, OK, very little ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of.


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards puts up hand that stick with MS news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good idea.

I pretty much agree with everything you said.

The best feature of NNTP ngs from my perspective is that it's very easy to
watch a thread for possible follow-ups.

I also like the speed and ease of access.

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Bruce Sinclair" wrote
in message ...
In article , "T. Valko"
wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still
a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is
good
with nothing (well, OK, very little ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only
willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out
there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of.


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards puts up hand that stick with MS
news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good
idea.

I agree with you and Bruce.
However...
the new Answers site could be a winner if it used the Ribbon. g
--
Jim Cone
Portland, Oregon USA



"T. Valko"
wrote in message ...
I pretty much agree with everything you said.

The best feature of NNTP ngs from my perspective is that it's very easy to
watch a thread for possible follow-ups.

I also like the speed and ease of access.
--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP

"Jim Cone" wrote in message
...

I agree with you and Bruce.
However...
the new Answers site could be a winner if it used the Ribbon. g

By gosh, I think he's got it!

In article , "Jim Cone" wrote:

I agree with you and Bruce.
However...
the new Answers site could be a winner if it used the Ribbon. g

Aaarrrgghhh ! (I'm sure that was the response you were looking for ).

I worked out a few months ago why I hate the whole ribbon thing idea (it's
at the top and takes up valuable space where my stuff could be), so I asked
how to move it to the side of the window. Seemed like an easy thing ... but
no. Apparently, not only are there only 3 colour "schemes" (another pet hate
) ... but the ribon is fixed ! Inconceivable !

In article , "T. Valko" wrote:
I pretty much agree with everything you said.

The best feature of NNTP ngs from my perspective is that it's very easy to
watch a thread for possible follow-ups.

I also like the speed and ease of access.

... is it possible that this is an attempt by MS to kill off a 'text only'
application that doesn't fit with their apparent 'everything looks better in
html' approach ? An interesting possibility if so - and still wrong.

On 5/9/2010 7:16 PM, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
In , "T. wrote:
I pretty much agree with everything you said.

The best feature of NNTP ngs from my perspective is that it's very easy to
watch a thread for possible follow-ups.

I also like the speed and ease of access.

.. is it possible that this is an attempt by MS to kill off a 'text only'
application that doesn't fit with their apparent 'everything looks better in
html' approach ? An interesting possibility if so - and still wrong.


Everything looks better with ads?

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier
Peltier Technical Services, Inc.
http://peltiertech.com/